Future non-U.S. 5th Generation fighters

[talltower]

The F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II are America's 5th Generation fighters, but she is not alone in such advanced aircraft.

Russia is developing her Raptor equivalent, the PAK FA (Su-50), along with a customized variant for India, the FGFA (Su-50MKI). India is developing her indigenous MCA while China is following suit with a 5th Gen fighter, the Shenyang J-XX (J-14?), while Japan and South Korea have developed technology demonstrators like the ATD-X (F-3) and KFX respectively.





Shenyang J-XX (J-14?)





Mitsubishi ATD-X (F-3)


KAI KFX



HAL Medium Combat Aircraft

What do you think?

[pigeonracer]

Originally Posted by talltower

What do you think?

Nice pictures, that Japanese stealth fighter must be a foot deep in dust by now*, seems to have been kicking about for ages.

*not literally!

[mupp]

I doubt we'll see one come out of Europe, maybe when the 6th gen comes around

.

[Distiller]

There is no money in Europe for a new manned fighter. (And the Europeans also don't invest anywhere enough for a UAV data backbone - airborne and orbital relays/integrators). In the West the F-35 will dominate for the next two decades.

China will sure do it. They want that kind of offensive capability.

Russia might try - let's see what PAK-FA offers. The Russian technology problems (computers, sensors, datacom) are a severe limitation for the overall system effectiveness, even if the airframe might be good.

And the rest, like Korea, Japan, India? Don't know in the longer term, but more likely no, since either the industrial basis or the political constellations make that questionable.

What might be interesting is a small WVR stealth fighter. Son of Tiger and Fishbed. Such a thing might be developed by one of the more advanced client states of the U.S.

In the end, and the LO fighter seen as only one part of the "war against the air" and "war from the air" complexes, that technology will be so complex and so expensive, and brings its full potential to bear only imbedded in an overall advanced battle complex, that only an offensive and ambitious foreign policy will justify developing/buying/fielding it. The USA and China will do it (with the EU the potential third, but perfect in thwarting its own future), all the others buying from those two (three).

[ante_climax]

Originally Posted by Distiller

There is no money in Europe for a new manned fighter. (And the Europeans also don't invest anywhere enough for a UAV data backbone - airborne and orbital relays/integrators). In the West the F-35 will dominate for the next two decades.

China will sure do it. They want that kind of offensive capability.

Russia might try - let's see what PAK-FA offers. The Russian technology problems (computers, sensors, datacom) are a severe limitation for the overall system effectiveness, even if the airframe might be good.

And the rest, like Korea, Japan, India? Don't know in the longer term, but more likely no, since either the industrial basis or the political constellations make that questionable.

What might be interesting is a small WVR stealth fighter. Son of Tiger and Fishbed. Such a thing might be developed by one of the more advanced client states of the U.S.

In the end, and the LO fighter seen as only one part of the "war against the air" and "war from the air" complexes, that technology will be so complex and so expensive, and brings its full potential to bear only imbedded in an overall advanced battle complex, that only an offensive and ambitious foreign policy will justify developing/buying/fielding it. The USA and China will do it (with the EU the potential third, but perfect in thwarting its own future), all the others buying from those two (three).

Don't make me laugh saying China can build a fifth generation and Russia cannot. Russian technology and sensors are lagging behind, hello did you see the PAK FA AESA ? When was the last time you saw a radar before the plane ?

China will prolly need to buy a PAK-FA prototype and reverse engineer it to get their on little stealthy plane. (To date they have not made a fighter from scratch)

To be honest I am not sure about the MCA either but one thing in India's favour is its participation and ToT in the FGFA (PAK FA) program. There is more co-operation between Russia and India than what meets the eye. India's ATV (Nuclear Sub) for example has extensive Russian tech. A country which shares that level of tech with India will not have a problem transferring fifth generation fighter tech, one certainly hopes that HAL has learnt from the LCA program as well.

As for the Japanese I think a lot will depend on them getting the F-22 or not.

[Schorsch]

Originally Posted by talltower

What do you think?

Russia has a chance to achieve that, but I doubt they will go all the way to F-22/F-35 like stealth considering they haven't built a stealthy aircraft yet.
China may try it, but first flight not before 2020, probably later, probably never.
The prohibitive costs and questionable advantage for the national defense makes stealthy fighters unattractive. China has nearly no airborne offensive capability and could seek easier ways of increasing its offensive. If I was a nation and want to take on the USA, I would quickly understand that investing in stealth is the best way of sinking money big way: countering stealth is not that difficult if you have the technology and the resources, which USA has.

The rest: public works projects for the defense and aerospace industry.

[Distiller]

I'm pretty much aware what the Russians are doing. Their major problems remain "systems" - they have some insular capability but severy problems tying things together; "digital systems" - as a very broad term; "brainpower" - similar to the West but for other reasons; "money" - recently (and yes, even Kudrin's treasure chest is not bottomless); and the ever lasting problems of post-Soviet Russia that don't belong here ...

While Russia is very good in a very few narrow sectors (like software), but it is generally struggling to keep the status-quo, still keeps falling behind as the advance of the arts abroad happens faster than Russia can play catch up.
If their generation jump in avionics and combat electronics will ever happen, it will take till the 2020's, when the new technology parks and other developments should make their influence felt.
What I actually expect to come out of Russia within the next two/three years are more UAV. Their problems regarding beyond-LOS C2 remains to be solved, though.

When it comes to high-tech the U.S. since Bush seemed to have pulled out all stops towards India, just for the sake of creating a counter weight to Red China. Remains to be seen if that results in actual airframes.

[pigeonracer]

Originally Posted by ante_climax

hello did you see the PAK FA AESA ? When was the last time you saw a radar before the plane ?

There is zero proof that the radar shown was anything other than a mockup.

[swerve]

Japan isn't willing to spend the money. Its research is just that: research. It's aimed at keeping up with the technology, in case it's ever needed, & (like the British Replica programme of the 1990s) putting a little pressure on the USA to sell its latest & best. All it has produced so far are mock-ups & RCS test models.

South Korea has the GDP of Spain. Is it really going to develop a 5th generation fighter all on its own? Its most advanced aircraft to date is a supersonic jet trainer cum light attack aircraft, developed with considerable US help, the development & export of which is severely constrained by its dependence on US technology. Only mock-ups to date.

Russia has more money & technology, & the willingness to use it. A good candidate, but see Distillers post for problems.

China has the money, but is still lagging in the technology, so far. The Chinese will field one, but not yet.

Europe has the money & the technology, but it's too big a project for individual countries to be willing to attempt it, & bickering between states, the unwillingness of some to spend, & the availability of the F-35, makes it unlikely, IMO, that any European country or consortium will bother.

[pigeonracer]

Originally Posted by swerve

the availability of the F-35, makes it unlikely, IMO, that any European country or consortium will bother.

Plus its been left to late by Europe to start playing 5th gen catch up games.

[swerve]

Originally Posted by pigeonracer

Plus its been left to late by Europe to start playing 5th gen catch up games.

If all stops were pulled out, one could imagine a new airframe built around Typhoon systems, including those not yet fully developed, such as CAPTOR-E, being fielded rather quickly, in time to replace the Tornado GR4, Spanish & Finnish F-18s, etc. But that would require political will which does not exist.

[milmascaras]

Originally Posted by swerve

Japan isn't willing to spend the money. Its research is just that: research. It's aimed at keeping up with the technology, in case it's ever needed, & (like the British Replica programme of the 1990s) putting a little pressure on the USA to sell its latest & best. All it has produced so far are mock-ups & RCS test models.

South Korea has the GDP of Spain. Is it really going to develop a 5th generation fighter all on its own? Its most advanced aircraft to date is a supersonic jet trainer cum light attack aircraft, developed with considerable US help, the development & export of which is severely constrained by its dependence on US technology. Only mock-ups to date.

Russia has more money & technology, & the willingness to use it. A good candidate, but see Distillers post for problems.

China has the money, but is still lagging in the technology, so far. The Chinese will field one, but not yet.

Europe has the money & the technology, but it's too big a project for individual countries to be willing to attempt it, & bickering between states, the unwillingness of some to spend, & the availability of the F-35, makes it unlikely, IMO, that any European country or consortium will bother.

hahahaha
Russia lagging behind when they beat the F-15 with the Su-27, russia will certainly make a really good aircraft, and i guess perhaps even better than the F-22.

[Wilde]

Originally Posted by Distiller

While Russia is very good in a very few narrow sectors (like software), but it is generally struggling to keep the status-quo, still keeps falling behind as the advance of the arts abroad happens faster than Russia can play catch up.

Sorry, but I think you're deluding yourself. We thought we were ahead by a countrymile before 1990. Until we got our hands on their equipment. Only then did we realize, that we were not. This was 20 years ago and we didn't get our hands on anything new they made ever since. So people, like you, are getting out of touch again.

[pigeonracer]

Originally Posted by milmascaras

hahahaha
Russia lagging behind when they beat the F-15 with the Su-27, russia will certainly make a really good aircraft, and i guess perhaps even better than the F-22.

You're living in the past pal, Russia's airforce is not a patch ogn the current USAF and the jets they operate. Deal with it.

[pigeonracer]

Originally Posted by swerve

If all stops were pulled out, one could imagine a new airframe built around Typhoon systems, including those not yet fully developed, such as CAPTOR-E, being fielded rather quickly, in time to replace the Tornado GR4, Spanish & Finnish F-18s, etc. But that would require political will which does not exist.

Yeah i;'d pretty much agree with you there but, and a big but only if the project was a single nation project. the moment it becomes a multi national consortium is the moment when the project would be flounder due to political wrangling. Sure they'd make it but not on time if it was multinational.

[milmascaras]

Originally Posted by pigeonracer

You're living in the past pal, Russia's airforce is not a patch ogn the current USAF and the jets they operate. Deal with it.

Your are wrong buddy the weapons race means some one leaps ahead just to be overcome by a nation that was lagging behind, Russia has catched up and surpassed with Su-35 to all the eurocanards, J-10 and F-18E, its Su-34 has no equivalent and the PAK FA is very likely already flying

[pigeonracer]

Originally Posted by milmascaras

Your are wrong buddy the weaposn race means some one leaps ahead just to be overcome by a nation that was lagging behind, Russia has catched up with Su-35 to all the eurocanards and F-18E, its Su-34 has no equivalent and the PAK FA is very likely already flying

The flankers are a match for Euro jets, according to some, not according to others...
The PAK-FA is probably not flying either, otherwise they'd be crowing to the press to save face for the already appalling delays in the project.

[milmascaras]

Originally Posted by pigeonracer

The flankers are a match for Euro jets, according to some, not according to others...
The PAK-FA is probably not flying either, otherwise they'd be crowing to the press to save face for the already appalling delays in the project.

no eurocanard has 3d thrust vectoring and supercruise russia wins
the PAK FA is not a paper plane any more is a real aircraft ready to fly in some remote part of siberia face it Russia has catched up

[pigeonracer]

Originally Posted by milmascaras

no eurocanard has 3d thrust vectoring and supercruise russia wins
the PAK FA is not a paper plane any more is a real aircraft ready to fly in some remote part of siberia face it Russia has catched up

No, this is nonsense that Russia has 'caught up'
The F-22 has been operational for years, the Russian equivilent will not be operational for a decade yet!

As for the Su-35, they have about three, a mighty force isn't that! They will order perhaps 50, no-where near enough for a small European nation let alone Russia.

Su-35's supercruise is pretty awful too, not in the same league as the Typhoons.

[Trident]

Originally Posted by pigeonracer

There is zero proof that the radar shown was anything other than a mockup.

It probably WAS a mock-up, given that it was presented at an airshow. Since when has that ever mattered though? The APG-77, APG-81 and APG-80 at AeroIndia were not only models, they were even sub-scale.

And yes, proof of working hardware exists, there are TV reports showing NIIP's AESA being tested in an anechoic chamber. Now what exactly was your point, again? Might as well have pointed out that the sky is blue

As for Russia's lag in avionics: it definitely exists, but I'm not at all sure it is as crippling as many think. Infact, I doubt the current Western advantage is greater than it used to be in the late 1980s, a time when the USSR managed to match the then-benchmark F-14/15 by some innovative lateral thinking.

Originally Posted by pigeonracer

Su-35's supercruise is pretty awful too, not in the same league as the Typhoons.

Since we do not know accurate figures for either (and particularly the Su-35, considering that it first flew little more than 18 months ago) I doubt you are in a position to make that judgement.

[ante_climax]

Originally Posted by pigeonracer

There is zero proof that the radar shown was anything other than a mockup.

There is zero proof that it does not exist. Chances are that it does. All the Russians are lacking is money, their technology in every field is at-least on part with the Americans.

The flankers are a match for Euro jets, according to some, not according to others...
The PAK-FA is probably not flying either, otherwise they'd be crowing to the press to save face for the already appalling delays in the project.

According to the biased Europeans in this forum nothing is a match to their Eurojets bar the F-22. They diss the flanker derivatives and the F 35. I really hope that in my lifetime some of these go to War with a country which has a good fleet of Flankers or F 35s (could happen in the case of the Rafale esp)

That will shut them up for good.

It is worth noting that to date the F 15 and Su 27 has the range advantage over all the Euro Canards.

[swerve]

Originally Posted by Wilde

Sorry, but I think you're deluding yourself. We thought we were ahead by a countrymile before 1990. Until we got our hands on their equipment. Only then did we realize, that we were not. This was 20 years ago and we didn't get our hands on anything new they made ever since. So people, like you, are getting out of touch again.

Different world. Russia is not the USSR. It is spending a small fraction of what the USSR did, & is far more open. It is not developing technology as quickly, & we know more about what it is doing. Really big surprises are far less likely.

[over G]

Russians lagging behind when they already got full printed AESA emitters while the others are still using welded components, yeah sure...

I'm not talking about nice displays or pdfs...but there are news and details that you should pay more attention..

BTW, i still think when the Irbis goes into production , it will have better performance than any AESA radar..including the "pakfa's" one

There is one thing right, there are no resources for a new fighter program, from the US (other than the 35), Europe, Russia (other than the pakfa)....China is the only country that has a capability (and a need) to produce a new generation fighter, and i would not sub estimate their capabilities, the J10 seems very capable

[Wilde]

Originally Posted by ante_climax

According to the biased Europeans in this forum nothing is a match to their Eurojets bar the F-22. They diss the flanker derivatives and the F 35. I really hope that in my lifetime some of these go to War with a country which has a good fleet of Flankers or F 35s (could happen in the case of the Rafale esp)

Euro-crew checking in.

Not all are saying that. Euro-canards are good for what they were built for. That's not the same Flankers, Raptors or "stealthy A-10" (F-35 ) were built for. Unlike America and Russia we don't need planes that can be used to sanitize hostile air-space, because we're not gonna invade anyone anytime. And we don't have neighbors with crazy leaders like Georgia or North Korea.

I seriously doubt you'll see us going to a full-fledged war against anyone. So sorry to disappoint you there.

[ante_climax]

BTW, i still think when the Irbis goes into production , it will have better performance than any AESA radar..including the "pakfa's" one

I am sure if this was the case the Russians would have put an Ibris in the Pak Fa.

Euro-crew checking in.

Not all are saying that. Euro-canards are good for what they were built for. That's not the same Flankers, Raptors or "stealthy A-10" (F-35 ) were built for. Unlike America and Russia we don't need planes that can be used to sanitize hostile air-space, because we're not gonna invade anyone anytime. And we don't have neighbors with crazy leaders like Georgia or North Korea.

I seriously doubt you'll see us going to a full-fledged war against anyone. So sorry to disappoint you there.

I meant biased Europeans if you are not biased you should not have a problem.

Bombing Serbia was not an invasion ?

Europeans are aggressively marketing their jets, so we may see them in battle against the flanker derivatives or the F 35 in future.

[over G]

I am sure if this was the case the Russians would have put an Ibris in the Pak Fa.

Things don't work in that way...

[Trident]

Speaking of South Korea, I seem to remember reading that their KF-X project is officially shelved. As others have pointed out, this would hardly be surprising, considering how ambitious it was for a country the size of South Korea.

IMHO, the only chance for an East Asian (other than China) 5th generation aircraft to come to fruitition would have been a cooperation between South Korea and Japan - which sadly is not realistic politically (both countries have a lot of common defence requirements nonetheless).

[sferrin]

Originally Posted by talltower

The F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II are America's 5th Generation fighters, but she is not alone in such advanced aircraft.

Russia is developing her Raptor equivalent, the PAK FA (Su-50), along with a customized variant for India, the FGFA (Su-50MKI). India is developing her indigenous MCA while China is following suit with a 5th Gen fighter, the Shenyang J-XX (J-14?), while Japan and South Korea have developed technology demonstrators like the ATD-X (F-3) and KFX respectively.





Shenyang J-XX (J-14?)





Mitsubishi ATD-X (F-3)


KAI KFX



HAL Medium Combat Aircraft

What do you think?

Most of that is fanboy art. Not all but the majority.

[pigeonracer]

Originally Posted by ante_climax

There is zero proof that it does not exist. Chances are that it does. All the Russians are lacking is money, their technology in every field is at-least on part with the Americans.

Simply not true, especially in regards to LO technology. Russia could have scraped together the money to operate a 5th gen fighter fleet a decade ago, had it had the technical ability but it didn't. Money is a conveiniant excuse but not a legitimate one for a nation the size of Russia.

[Wilde]

Originally Posted by ante_climax

Bombing Serbia was not an invasion ?

Europeans are aggressively marketing their jets, so we may see them in battle against the flanker derivatives or the F 35 in future.

bombing Serbia was not an invasion. I do not endorse it though, because it was excessive use of force.

And the euro-canards are not marketed to countries, that would use them to attack their neighbors. Neither India, Japan or Brazil are likely to do that. And the Saudis could only attack Israel with them, which is unlikely too. They cannot seriously attack Iran with them. Right now I don't see a plausible scenario where euro-canards would duke it out with Flankers or F-35.