Rafale News VII

[toan]

Originally Posted by Peter G

As already mentioned the 234 (84 Rafale B, 150 Rafale C) have been cut to 228. I think its 8 Rafale squadrons total?

Squadrons for Rafale according to FAF's declaration during April, 2008:

1. Provence (Rafale B/C for A2A, A2G, and RECO missions).

2. Gascogne (Rafale B for nuclear-striking mission).

3. Normandie-Niemen (Mirage F1CT today).

4. Alsace (Mirage F1B / CT today).

5. Lorraine (A previous Mirage F1 squadron that has been disbanded now).

6. Lafayette (Mirage 2000N today).

7. Cigognes (Mirage 2000-5F today).

8. Ile-de-France (Mirage 2000 B/C today).

Each squadron shall acquire 20 Rafales finally.


* Three Mirage 2000N squadrons today shall be replace by two Rafale B squadrons after 2018.

* Six Mirage 2000B/C/-5F squadrons today: two will be replaced by Rafale B/C, and the other four ??

* Four Mirage 2000D squadrons today: replaced by Rafale or UCAV after 2025 to 2030 ??

[Peter G]

The Mirage 2000N is fitted with a nuclear weapons cockpit armament panel. This is not fitted in day to day operations, only when the ASMP is loaded.

[arthuro]

some news :

Defence

DATE:20/05/09

SOURCE:Flight International

Thales outlines sensor enhancements for Rafale

By Craig Hoyle

Thales is to offer an enhanced XF version of its Damocles targeting pod, and expects to complete flight qualification trials of the system in 2012.

To be equipped with a new daylight camera with continuous zoom, and to also deliver enhanced high-resolution infrared imagery, the Damocles XF will be capable of providing real-time video to ground troops and forward air controllers via a datalink, says Thales.

Key attributes will include improved image quality from short and medium range, and automatic image sharpening to reduce crew workload, says Pascal Jourdan, Damocles project manager for Thales Optronique. The multifunction system will be capable of providing targeting information for laser- and GPS/INS-guided weapons, and of providing tactical reconnaissance and battle damage assessment services, he adds.

"We needed to make some evolutions to the pod," says Jourdan, who expects to freeze the design of the new version late this year. The XF system will retain its weight of around 280kg (617lb), inertia and shape of the baseline Damocles pod, he says, removing the need to perform costly recertification activities.

Thales sold 10 Damocles pods to the French navy early this decade, plus 15 in 2007 to equip the French air force's F3-standard Dassault Rafale fighters. It has also sold a further 75 systems to five export customers, and Jourdan says that "it is a key requirement to be able to retrofit" in-service equipment to the XF configuration.

Meanwhile, Serge Larroque, Thales Optronique's reconnaissance product line manager, says the company's Reco NG/Areos pod will undergo final qualification with the Rafale F3 in July. The design will then be delivered to the French air force flight-test centre at Mont de Marsan air base to support concept of operations development work.

The Reco NG imagery intelligence system will be delivered with air force and navy F3-configured Rafales, with the services having ordered a combined 20 pods. The air force will be able to field the system operationally for tactical and strategic reconnaissance from early next year, says Larroque. "We are ready to be more integrated in the network, and to provide imagery on demand," he adds.

Thales has performed more than 100 qualification flights with the Reco NG using Rafale and Dassault Mirage 2000 airframes. The company is already studying potential future enhancements to the system, including the integration of multi- or hyper-spectral sensors, says Larroque.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...or-rafale.html

[arthuro]

here is a very nice HD spotter video of a "tiger decorated rafale". The dissemetrical way the canard move at some point is quite interesting. :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbJdeVkQGa8

[Snow Monkey]

@Arthuro: Thanks for the links.
Could you do me a favor, and explain the different functionality of Damocles (XF) vs. Reco NG?
It just isn't 'clicking' for me, and I can't easily find enough info on Reco NG to fill in the gap...

[arthuro]

I am not a specialist on these pods so I don't exactly what are the different functionnalities but the main difference is the following :

Damocles can be used like a light recce element (like the "recce light" for the Typhoon for instance) but this is much much less performant than the reco NG.Using these items for recce instead of a dedicated pod like The RECO NG or AEROS is like "seeing the world with a pipe" which gives you a very small picture of what is going on. If you don't know where to look for this is going to be an issue to find insurgents movments etc...

The reco NG can digitize in VHD huge surfaces from high, medium and low altitude and transmit in near real time these pictures to intel services for analysis.

[Scorpion82]

Damocles is basically a targeting pod which can be used for NTISR purposes, it doesn't record anything to my knowledge. RECO NG is a true reconassaince system with digital recorder and specialised sensors/optronics for that role.

[Blue Apple]

Reco NG also has two antennas that can transmit its data realtime to a specialized reception station (or ship).

It also has much larger (and better we can guess) optics. It's much heavier after all (920kg vs 280kg).

[Peter G]

Reco NG has an 1100mm EO/IR. Resolution 0.15 m from 250m altitude (IR) and 1 m from 90 km (day EO) or 45 km (night IR). It also has a 350 km datalink.

[Snow Monkey]

Thanks for the info everybody. It's always in the details.

I suppose when sat-com is integrated (?), realtime long distance video uplinks (storable on other end) would also be possible with Damocles (XF) since it's already set-up for Rover links, though Reco/Areos' imagery/350km datalink would still make it preferred for recon.

[arthuro]

Stealth rafale concept :

Nothing very official but funny and not that bad I think

[arthuro]

Now the Rafale Koweti saga !!


Depeche AFP 21/10/2009

http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/artic...7046_3234.html

Kuwait would be "proud" to have the Rafale in its armies, said the Kuwaiti minister of defense and first deputy prime minister Wednesday, October 21 in Paris. The interest of Kuwait for the aircraft Dassault would end, if confirmed, the repeated failures of the aircraft's flagship airline industry of French defense which has never been exported. French President Nicolas Sarkozy said in February that France and Kuwait were discussing the possible sale of warships and 14 to 28 Rafale.

"We hope to see an offer [French] on this subject soon," said Sheikh Jaber Mubarak Al-Hamad Al-Sabah, saying it "will be studied very carefully and very clearly by the Air Force Kuwait ". The Kuwaiti Minister of Defense made the statements to the press after signing a new agreement on bilateral cooperation in the field of information exchange, assistance, training and equipping armed forces with his French counterpart Hervé Morin.

After his many setbacks to sell its Rafale of France began negotiations with Brazil and the United Arab Emirates. The defense minister has confirmed Brazilian mid-September the preference of his country for combat aircraft, Dassault, because the total transfer of technology proposed by French.

The possible sale of Rafale in Kuwait would confirm the approximation made in recent months with the Gulf States. Mr. Sarkozy inaugurated in late May a French military base permanently to the United Arab Emirates, simultaneously renewing a defense agreement with Emirates from 1995. Paris is also linked to Qatar since 1994 by a defense agreement and was to open a branch in Doha of the Ecole Militaire de Saint-Cyr, the first outside France.

http://www.lepoint.fr/actualites-eco...e/916/0/387758

Kuwait is ready to buy Rafale fighter jet manufactured by Dassault Aviation, but expects the terms of the French offer, "said Kuwaiti Minister of Defense.

"Obviously, we would be proud to have the Rafale. (...) We hope to see an offer soon on this matter," said Sheikh Jaber al-Hamad al-Sabah at a press conference attended by Minister French Defense, Herve Morin.

"We have given the green light and we'll leave it to the technical group to study in depth the details," added the minister, whose remarks were translated.

Apparently it is for 36 rafales just like for Brazil.

[tiddles]

Nothing really new here just a bit of news on the FX Comp.
Tiddles
Rafale: Keeping the French Government Busy
Posted by Robert Wall at 10/23/2009 3:55 AM CDT

The Brazilian government is about to get another dose of French lobbying to buy the Dassault Aviation Rafale strike fighter.
At least that's what one has to assume will happen when French defense minister Herve Morin heads to Brazil next week.
It is the first visit of a top French government official since French president Nicolas Sarkozy visited his counterpart, Brazilian President Lula, triggering the announcement Brazil would buy Rafale. That, in turn, led to the Brazilian air force pointing out that the source selection process was not complete. The back and forth turned into a national embarrassment for Brazil.

On October 2, Saab, Boeing and Dassault submitted updated bids for the Brazilian competition. Morin's visit will give the French another chance to talk up their fighter in the wake of the dust-up and with the final bids now in. No doubt, Morin will remind the Brazilian of France's intent to support development of the KC390 tanker transport Embraer plans to develop.

The visit follows Morin hosting Kuwait's defense minister this week, where the two also talked of Rafale (along with other procurement and strategic issues).

What's more, the French government is now in what could be the final round of talks with the United Arab Emirates to sell Rafale to that air force.

And, don't forget, the French air force this month deployed Rafales to Libya, where the French fighter also has aspirations.

Clearly, Paris is leaving no stone unturned in its bid to finally secure the first export order for Rafale.

[arthuro]

What's more, the French government is now in what could be the final round of talks with the United Arab Emirates to sell Rafale to that air force.

I've heard this as well in the french specialized press...That would be a very good news to see this super rafale to take shape. It is often said that it could be signed in November.

********

From the head of the DGA (french MOD) interviewed by the national assembly.

http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/13...0009.asp#P3_69

Laurent Collet-Billon. We prepare now the fourth order of rafale with deliveries scheduled from 2015. The LPM provides a clear slowdown in the rate of production for the French aircraft between 2012 and 2014, the difference being compensated by exports. However, the negotiations started, as positive as they are, will not lead early enough to ensure this balance. We must therefore adopt assumptions for the contract and subsequently proceed to a shift of pace according to embodiments of export prospects. The contract on the fourth installment incorporates this flexibility clauses quite able to cope with different possibilities of evolution.

I share your desire to transform as quickly as possible Rafale F1 Rafale F3: soon it will be less expensive it will cost. If we succeed, this will increase the number of available rafales.

The renovation of 50 to 60 Mirage 2000D require funding of around 700 million euros. I think this could actually help alleviate the late rise of the Rafale. I am not responsible for the running costs, I can not, however, whether this upgrade will not or avoid significant expenses for maintenance. I mention that I still remain vigilant to changes in the cost of ownership even if I do not control all aspects.

It seems that the AdA will be an indirect victim of exports success...The fourth batch will arrive much later than expected...That is quite a bad news for the AdA although it will enable the rafale assembly line to run for longer and (perhaps!) require a new waves of upgrade to remain competitive at this period (HMD, satellite datalink etc ...)

Good to see that the F1 should be upgraded to the F3 standard and that the mirage 2000D will get a big midlife upgrade (RDY-3, mica, glass cockpit, L16 etc...)

[swerve]

I don't think it's very bad news. A Mirage 2000D upgraded as you say will be a formidable strike aircraft, and not bad air to air.

[Peter G]

Any links to the equipment fit for the Mirage 2000D upgrade?

Kinda a pattern really - Mirage F1CT, Mirage 2000-5F and now Mirage 2000D - all thanks to reduced Rafale funding.

[arthuro]

according to the interview (see link) 20 meteors should be ordered in 2010 by the french MOD. According to the Weekly air et cosmos this is linked to the pending UAE deal.

That would be a big capacity boost for the rafale in the AtA role which could come quite quickly.

Pour les programmes de recherche et de technologie (R&T), la préparation du renouvellement des composantes océaniques et aériennes de la dissuasion se poursuivra. Nous lançons actuellement les études concernant le sous-marin nucléaire lanceur d’engins des années 2030.

Le renforcement de nos capacités de frappe dans la profondeur sera prolongé par la commande de 168 armements air-sol modulaires (AASM), de 22 systèmes lance-roquette unitaires (LRU), de 135 missiles MISTRAL rénovés et de 20 missiles air-air d’interception à domaine élargi (MIDE).

MIDE = french name for meteor rough traduction : (enlarged interception area air to air missile)

http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/13...0009.asp#P3_69

Next generation SSBN around 2030 already under study...that seems to be quite early.

[Nicolas10]

Originally Posted by arthuro

http://www.assemblee-nationale.fr/13...0009.asp#P3_69

What's interesting from this link is that they are already planning the introduction of the KC390...

Either things go fast, or the purchase of the KC390 in offset to the sale of Rafales was long discussed with the brazilians.

Nic

[Nicolas10]

Originally Posted by swerve

I don't think it's very bad news. A Mirage 2000D upgraded as you say will be a formidable strike aircraft, and not bad air to air.

In the original text he goes on to say that he doesn't know whether the Mirage 2000 MLU will stop maintenance costs to rise... but that he'll keep an eye on it...

No doubt such M2ks will be very potent, maybe even better than the 2000-9, but it's going to come at a cost for the AdlA.

[Noite Escura]

Originally Posted by tiddles

And, don't forget, the French air force this month deployed Rafales to Libya, where the French fighter also has aspirations.

I read today in a local blog that Lybia is going with the russians (Su-35)...

[Snow Monkey]

That's certainly a possibility, but given that Russian media also quotes Sukhoi reps as claiming Su-35 is still in contention for Brazil's FX-2, I'm not inclined to get too excited over such claims.

[glitter]

Originally Posted by arthuro

It seems that the AdA will be an indirect victim of exports success...The fourth batch will arrive much later than expected...That is quite a bad news for the AdA although it will enable the rafale assembly line to run for longer and (perhaps!) require a new waves of upgrade to remain competitive at this period (HMD, satellite datalink etc ...)

It's knew for quite some time that the MoD tried anything to slowdown the production rate for the AdA to save money, so, it's not unepected nor a "real" problem for the plane itself.

[arthuro]

Rafale M vs F22 :

ps : note that the rafale M22 on this picture is one of the rafale that were lost during the recent mid air collision (M22 and M25) causing the death of one pilot.

Bonus : a chart showing the rafale 180° MICA firing pattern.

[Dare2]

Originally Posted by arthuro

Rafale M vs F22 :

Rafale M vs F22 :

Good reminder of the real capabilities of the aircraft.

What else than a good 180*kill on a drone?

Allow me just for bringing back some memories.



The funny thing is:

When we are told about US design we are spoken too like people who never actualy designed such aircraft:

When it entered into service back in 1964, the Mirage IV A was the first European military aircraft capable of sustained flight at Mach 2; it is still the only one in Western Europe.

Production and operational experience
On June 17, 1959, Roland Glavany took off for the first time at 10:20 am. The flight lasted 40 minutes. For its third flight, on June 20, 1959, Mirage IV 01 was authorized to make a flight pass over the Paris Air Show with General de Gaulle among the onlookers. On September 19, 1960, at 05:05 pm, René Bigand took off from Melun-Villaroche in Mirage IV 01 and broke the world speed record over a 1 000-km closed circuit (1 822 km/h). Flight 138, on September 23, corroborated the initial performance and pushed the record on a 500-km closed circuit to an average of 1 972 km/h, flying between Mach 2.08 and Mach 2.14.
http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/...ge-iv.html?L=1

Symposium « French Air Force and Mirage IV » - 2009-10-20
On October the 13th, the symposium “French Air Force and Mirage IV”, supported by Dassault Aviation, took place at the French Air Force Academy in Salon-de-Provence.

Set up by the Air Force, its aim was to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the first flight of the Mirage IV, on June, 17th, 1959.

Eleven speakers presented a global vision of the program, under geopolitical, political, industrial and operational aspects, with speeches endorsed by pictures or movies.

On the evening, 200 air cadets were given summaries of the conference. Testimonies from General Roland Glavany, test pilot and General Edgar Pintor, former head of an operational squadron, were very appreciated.
http://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/...ash=8328870e9f



http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x9m...-aviation_tech

I would like to figure out what would be the supercruising speed of the Mirage IV with two 3 5,000-pound-thrust-class F119 PW-100 on it?

2 Snecma Atar 9 K 2 x 6 600 kgp

2 F119 PW-100 <> x 15.875 kgp

Empty weight: 14 000 kg

Designed for sustained M 2.0.

Can we have another one please?

[toan]

Originally Posted by Dare2

I would like to figure out what would be the supercruising speed of the Mirage IV with two 3 5,000-pound-thrust-class F119 PW-100 on it?

2 Snecma Atar 9 K 2 x 6 600 kgp

2 F119 PW-100 <> x 15.875 kgp

Empty weight: 14 000 kg

Designed for sustained M 2.0.

Can we have another one please?

a:

The data you offered is the maximal static thrust on the ground for F119 and Atar 9K. We simplely have no idea of the thrust performance for F119 and Atar 9K at the speed of 1.5 to 2.0 mach+ in high altitude.

Atar 9K is a turbojet, which make it have mediocre thrust performance at the subsonic and transonic range compared with a turbofan. However, once the fighter's speed is more than Mach 1.5 and approaching to the Mach 2.0, the thrust performance of a turbojet will become better and better.....

[Dare2]

Originally Posted by toan

a:
The data you offered is the maximal static thrust on the ground for F119 and Atar 9K. We simplely have no idea of the thrust performance for F119 and Atar 9K at the speed of 1.5 to 2.0 mach+ in high altitude.

Atar 9K is a turbojet, which make it have mediocre thrust performance at the subsonic and transonic range compared with a turbofan. However, once the fighter's speed is more than Mach 1.5 and approaching to the Mach 2.0, the thrust performance of a turbojet will become better and better.....

True, although simplified a bit:

At the time the Mirage IV needed all the thrust from the Atar 9K to sustain M 2.0 anyway.

Take the A-B from the F119 and you still have more thrust installed, i couldn't find a figure for F119 military power but i 'd guess 60% would be a good figure to start with.

2 X 9525 kgp = 19050 kgp in military power for an Empty weight of 14 000 kg looks quiet the buzines at any altitude.

The Inlets looks like two shocks too, better for flights at altitude.

[Scorpion82]

Originally Posted by Dare2

True, although simplified a bit:

At the time the Mirage IV needed all the thrust from the Atar 9K to sustain M 2.0 anyway.

Take the A-B from the F119 and you still have more thrust installed, i couldn't find a figure for F119 military power but i 'd guess 60% would be a good figure to start with.

2 X 9525 kgp = 19050 kgp in military power for an Empty weight of 14 000 kg looks quiet the buzines at any altitude.

The Inlets looks like two shocks too, better for flights at altitude.

I have seen a 113 kN dry thrust figure for the F119 some years ago.

[Dare2]

Originally Posted by Scorpion82

I have seen a 113 kN dry thrust figure for the F119 some years ago.

Interesting.

So even a derated, Military power-only F119 would make of it a M 2.0 supercruiser today.

[GlobalPress]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...LIQEALBh0Ip9ZQ

[Dare2]

Originally Posted by GlobalPress

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...LIQEALBh0Ip9ZQ

Let them probe a State-to-State deal...

If anything, it's not going to make much of a difference and perhaps even increase this minister resolve to prove that he is in charge, not the opposition or the Islamist Party.