Rafale news VI

[glitter]

Originally Posted by greg

I recent huge dept of about $200bil was revealed that was "hidden" under the carpet. Oil is down. Construction companies are firing and stop constructions.

And went from 35 to $70 in few months ...

[Peter G]

Peru was Dec 86 to 1987

[greg]

Originally Posted by glitter

And went from 35 to $70 in few months ...

Oil was abt 140 USD per barrel just some months ago.
IIRC the UAE gov has stated that in order for the state finances to be in an even keel, oil should be at least 50 USD. Which is less than 70.
But a lot of the giagantic programming plus the affiliated loans, was held, when oil was well above 120 USD.

To make things a little more complicated, from the seven states of UAE, only Abu Dhabi has got oil reserves. Dubai has not, whatsoever, but relies on the huge port facility and tourism for income. Both are also going down.

Lets wait and see.

[flex297]

Originally Posted by Peter G

Peru was Dec 86 to 1987

Corrected, thanks.

[greg]

Originally Posted by flex297

Corrected, thanks.

you may also correct the Greek dates

[arthuro]

Rafale: Combat Veteran Set For Upgrades


It has taken France some time to get the Rafale fighter's multi-role capabilities into the field, but with that task now winding up, attention is starting to shift to introduce a far-reaching round of upgrades.

Developers are targeting the so-called F3 Plus standard for fielding around 2012. The emphasis is not so much on doing anything new, but on doing everything better. Upgrades are planned for the radar, targeting pod, optical sight system, and electronic warfare suite. The engine, also, is due for improvement, mainly to reduce its life-cycle cost.

French needs aren't the only factors driving the enhancements. Equally important, if not more, is the interest of the French government and prime contractor Dassault to finally secure an export order for Rafale - the only exportable western fighter currently on the market having failed to secure such a deal. In addition to on-going competitions in Brazil, Switzerland and India, the Rafale is being marketed aggressively in the Middle East, particularly the United Arab Emirates.

As part of the upgrade roadmap, France is looking to add new weapons to Rafale. Among them is the ramjet-powered MBDA Meteor beyond visual range air-to-air missile. The problem is that there's no firm budget or timeline, at this point, for when the weapon may be in inventory, says Stephane Reb, project manager at French armaments agency DGA. Meteor may not become operational on Rafale before 2017.

France also is looking to enhance air-to-ground capabilities, with risk reduction work now underway to integrate a laser-guided version of the AASM powered bomb, with a test shot due next year.

The biggest capabilities upgrade, however, is likely to be to the Thales radar, with the introduction of an active electronically scanned array. It is due to be ready in 2012, having already undergone significant development work. Low-rate AESA production began in November, will full-scale production to begin by year-end.

The radar will greatly expand the range and number of targets a Rafale fighter can track. It should also dramatically lower operating and maintenance costs.

Other major features in the development pipeline include the Damocles XF targeting pod enhancement. It should improve short and medium-range imagery, without degrading long-range performance. The XF also will include a datalink to provide ground forces with full motion video from the pod.

The optical site system, the OSF, is being improved by boosting processing (the OSF-IT standard) to allow the introduction of new software and target-tracking features. The Specter electronic-warfare suite also is being enhanced, mainly with the upgrade of the DDM missile warning system to the "NG" configuration. The DDM-NG is an imaging infrared system.

Meanwhile, Rafale continues its regular rotations to Afghanistan to support combat forces there. When the French air force made its debut there, just before the last Paris air show, missions were still flown from neighboring Dushanbe, Tajikistan. Since then, Rafales have been deployed to Kandahar, where they share the operational burden with Mirage 2000s and Super Entendards.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...show=paris2009

[Kovy]

Some interresting pics :

the classic 6xgbu-12


unseen in flight until now : 1 GBU-24 + damocles + 6 mica


reco NG pod + 6 mica


meteor trial


no comment

[Scorpion82]

Nice pics Kovy. It's the first time I see the GBU-24 being attached to the Rafale. Is it known when this weapon will be fielded?

[Kovy]

Probably when the damocles will enter operational service on the plane at the end of 2009 (?)

[glitter]

Originally Posted by Kovy

Some interresting pics :
the classic 6xgbu-12

When looking at that picture, I have a hard time to imagine that the MICA EM can be fired

Anyway, it seems that with UAE it's damn serious
http://secretdefense.blogs.liberatio...abes-unis.html

Selon le Figaro, "la France s'engage à utiliser tous les moyens militaires dont elle dispose pour défendre les Émirats arabes unis s'ils venaient à être agressés". Ces moyens devront être "définis en commun" par les deux pays.

Nothing unexpected here, with that strange "tous les moyens" which, as the blogger wrote could even include a nuclear "protection".

[Nicolas10]

Where did the pics go? I can't see them.

Nic

[OPIT]

Originally Posted by glitter

When looking at that picture, I have a hard time to imagine that the MICA EM can be fired

They're ejected first, then the rocket motor is ignited. That's how this thing usually works when carried under the fuselage.

[arthuro]

One day at the Paris Air show (professional days)

Hello everyone,

I’ve spent the whole day at the Le Bourget and I had the opportunity to meet two rafale pilots and a DGA engineer responsible for the AtG rafale weaponry integration. This was on the French armed forces static display, not Dassault’s.

I couldn’t have access to the Dassault static display today because of the number of official/TV delegations but I have an invitation for Thursday. The nice thing is that the French defense static was very comprehensive with a rafale B, a rafale M, an EC725 caracal with AdA para commandos (C-SAR), a mirage 2000D and a tiger helicopter. All the militaries were here to answer questions and as it was a professional day there weren’t too much people and I had really the time to talk with the pilots, the commandos or DGA staff.

I also crossed the French minister of defense which was visiting the French armed forced satic display but of course he was very busy with a big delegation of officers, industrials and cameras…So no chance to talk to him!


So the first rafale pilot that I met in the early afternoon (before the demos) was from the Marine Nationale. He is a former SuE pilot and has his night qual. Carrier landing with the rafale. He gave me quite a few “scoop” nothing extraordinary but still interesting when you are gleaning every piece of information.

Just to pick some of the stuff which didn’t appear in the press (many thing he said is already known), he told that when encountering F18 and F18 SH from the Roosevelt (dogfighting), the rafale didn’t suffer a single loss despite the fact that some of the hornets were equipped with JHMS+ Aim 9X. So he really balanced the quality of this feature. He recognized that they were a bit anxious before encountering such a type of threat but in the end it wasn’t really an issue. Second point he said that the SH looses a lot of energy when brutally changing of trajectory and then started to sink…In fact when their US navy counter parts couldn’t point their nose in the direction of the rafale to be within the aim9X firing envelope they strated to do this kind of brutal maneuver which made them loose their energy.


Other “scoop” concerning the rafale vs typhoon…This MN pilot already downed a typhoon with a two supersonic drop tank config (for the rafale) in a simulated gun dogfight. It took him three turns to take the advantage. So he didn’ felt that there was a big gap of performance between the two aircrafts in this area. He admitted that the outcome could have bee different as there is always a part of luck in this type of engagement but he insisted that both aircraft are quite similar for dog fighting skills. He also point out that it is impossible to know the real outcome of a BVR fight since many parameters are unknown. For instance rafale jamming war modes are never used in exercises just like other modern aircrafts.

That is it for the MN rafale pilot.


After the demos, later in the afternoon I went back and talked with an AdA rafale pilote from St Dizier. Just to pick the few interesting things he said (that are not really in the press)…He said that the rafale is in his opinion an excellent aircraft even if in some areas it is not the best. He said that the SH is better to carry heavy loads (it is bigger) that the Typhoon is better at high speeds and that Russian aircrafts are very impressive even if they are less sophisticated than their western counterparts. He said that there are two items were the rafale is above the competition according to pilots feedbacks in international exercises (he mentioned the typhoon the SH and the gripen). It was the Man Machine Interface which is top notch in the rafale according to him as well as the sensor fusion. He even talked about American generals visting St Dizier impressed by the MMI and the level of the situation awareness…(ok here he couldn’t dissimulate his pride at this point!)

The very interesting thing about this pilot is that he already flew with the RBE2 AESA and while he wasn’t specific he said like a children trying a new toy that the gain of performance is huge in every areas. He didn’t try to dissimulate the “wow” factor that he had when trying it.


Perhaps the most interesting meeting I had was with a DGA engineer which was responsible for the AtG weapons integration for the rafale….
So we should soon see the rafale operationally carrying GBU24…Firstly in the centerline pylone (*1) and after on the middle wing stations (*2). On this matter I also saw a reduced scale rafale moke up with three GBU24 on Dassault’s inside stand.

For the OSF-it and the absence of IR channel he said that it was because the pilots didn’t really know how to use it…Just to say that it was not that useful in real life considering the mica IR can already provide IR imaging with a greta field of view. They are integrated in the weapon system. So they preferred to dedicate all the resources to get a very good updated TV channel.

The new TDA rafale rocket pod was also displayed and he told that work in under way to integrate it. He also explained why it is so long to integrate weapons to an aircraft and the difference with crash programs. For instance only the rafale F3 will be able to fully exploit the GBU12. For the moment the firing envelope is very restrictive and it is difficult/energy consuming to use it in A-stan.
Damocles pods arrival is the AdA is imminent with the M2000 and the rafale. The first pods won’t have the rover system though because they aren’t from the newest XF version.


Other noteworthy things the rafale M displayed on Dassault static display has 4 meteors and 4 micas including two on the new outer wing pylons. Most of the reduced scale moke up in Dassault’s inside stand was fitted with micas on these new hard points.


That is it for today…I also talked to AdA commandos (I could handle FAMAS, minimi or sniper rifles), USAF personnel but that was about other military topics. I hope I forgot anything but I am going back to le Bourget Thursday with an access to dassault’s static display this time so I’ll be able to ask other questions…

[SpudmanWP]

Sorry... but under no circumstances can a IR seeker on a missile replace an IRST of comparable tech.

My favorite part is "it was not that useful in real life". This just gos to show how UN-integrated the avionics suite really is. What a joke.

[TMor]

Sure, you really wonder who's the joke !

[arthuro]

Well that what an official said...It is perhaps not ideal and some kind of compromise but it is just how it is...The OSF is slaved to the radar to talk about integration...

[TMor]

Originally Posted by arthuro

The OSF is slaved to the radar[...]

At least, since it could also be cued by another Rafale's Spectra track transmitted via datalink...

[Aurel]

What I find very interesting is the part about the inefficiency of HMS + 9X. Would be nice to learn more bout this.

[SpudmanWP]

You do realize that IRST is Infrared search and Track? Notice the Infrared part? Without it an IRST you do not have.

I was not saying that the Rafale is a joke, just their solution of using MICA IR as an IRST.

What happens if you run out of or are not carring MICA IR?

Why make a statement like "the pilots didn’t really know how to use it" if it was integrated?

A truly integrated suite would allow a pilot to select which seeker to use (IRST or radar) and press the "Search" button (I know, overly simplified). All results from either seeker would allow targeting to seamlessly proceed. Pilots should not need a high level of training to make it work.

[arthuro]

well one of the quality of the rafale is its sensor integration and fusion as well as its MMI according to this AdA pilot. Besides last october I had the same feedback from another rafale pilot in paris.

I f they choosed to go this way it is because they have some good reasons. They are investing in many areas so if they decided to scarp the IR channel (it is provisional, it can be added later) it is for rational reasons. So there might be pieces of info that we don't have but this is a well balanced decision from operational feedbacks when deciding to invest on certain areas or not...I talked extensively to this DGA engineer and I had the feeling that there are some rational reasons behind this choice.

Afterward I honestly don't have all the details of the story but this decision is a consensus with the pilots operational feedbacks, the DGA and the industry...So...

Spudman : I didn't really exprssed myself very clearly when I said "they didn't know how to realy use the IR channel" I meant they didn't manage to find a big operational added value considering they have the mica IR. I didn't meant it was difficult to use because of an improper integration....

[TMor]

On Rafale, you choose between several profiles, and sensors (radar, irst etc) are used accordingly.

So yes, it's very well integrated. The only thing you demonstrate is that you start from an invalid opinion (IRST not integrated), an go on with invalid arguments (you believe the pilot's comment matches your opinion).

New IR missiles use imagery, and can search tracks by themselves, it was already possible with the Magic II (M2000N/D pilots used them so as to find tankers because they had no A2A mode on the radar).

I see no reason why you call the Mica IR story a joke, since it's also integrated (whatever they find can be correlated by other sensors).

[Cola1973]

Hey Arthuro, nice report.

When you do go again, on Thursday, could you do me a favor?

When you'll be talking to Rafale pilots, please ask them, whether direct force control (DFC) has been used normally in flight, or the use of it requires some kind of override by pilot?

I don't think there should be any problems regarding disclosure of "classified" material. Thx.

[Loke]

Originally Posted by arthuro

He said that there are two items were the rafale is above the competition according to pilots feedbacks in international exercises (he mentioned the typhoon the SH and the gripen). It was the Man Machine Interface which is top notch in the rafale according to him as well as the sensor fusion.

Thanks Arthuro, very interesting report. AFAIK, the Gripen NG will have a much improved MMI and sensor fusion (compared to Gripen C/D )


L

[arthuro]

if you have some questions related to the rafale I can try to ask them...But don't be too specific otherwise they won't answer.

For instance when speaking about basic features of SPECTRA today ( even some aspects which are extensively discussed in the press) the AdA pilot prefered to talk about another topic...So the difficult thing is to get interesting pieces of infos knowing that we can't have acces to everything of course....

[SpudmanWP]

Do you really think a MICA's ~10Kg seeker can perform like a ~100Kg IRST?

[Cola1973]

Originally Posted by arthuro

if you have some questions related to the rafale I can try to ask them...But don't be too specific otherwise they won't answer.

For instance when speaking about basic features of SPECTRA today ( even some aspects which are extensively discussed in the press) the AdA pilot prefered to talk about another topic...So the difficult thing is to get interesting pieces of infos knowing that we can't have acces to everything of course....

Yes, I know, but I believe you could try asking about DFC. Although it's not all that important, I'd like to know a little bit more about Rafale aerodynamic/control routine and flight protocols.
I already have "a guy" inside Eurofighter's hangar , but I know little about Rafale and I'd like to learn more. That's all.
As far as electronics go, I'm not interested in it beyond public figures and I doubt even pilots know the "interesting" stuff.
Anyway, thx.

[Nicolas10]

I think they ditched the IR seeker of the OSF because they feel it doesn't warrant the cost when the Mica IR can do part of the job.

I suspect its a cost reduction measure, and I also suspect they are waiting for some progress in IR technology before the add a new one to the OSF that is really going to improve over the current one at a cheaper price. Pretty much the same way they waited for lower priced modules for the european AESAs.

Nic

[Scorpion82]

Originally Posted by arthuro

One day at the Paris Air show (professional days)

Hello everyone,

I’ve spent the whole day at the Le Bourget and I had the opportunity to meet two rafale pilots and a DGA engineer responsible for the AtG rafale weaponry integration. This was on the French armed forces static display, not Dassault’s.

I couldn’t have access to the Dassault static display today because of the number of official/TV delegations but I have an invitation for Thursday. The nice thing is that the French defense static was very comprehensive with a rafale B, a rafale M, an EC725 caracal with AdA para commandos (C-SAR), a mirage 2000D and a tiger helicopter. All the militaries were here to answer questions and as it was a professional day there weren’t too much people and I had really the time to talk with the pilots, the commandos or DGA staff.

I also crossed the French minister of defense which was visiting the French armed forced satic display but of course he was very busy with a big delegation of officers, industrials and cameras…So no chance to talk to him!


So the first rafale pilot that I met in the early afternoon (before the demos) was from the Marine Nationale. He is a former SuE pilot and has his night qual. Carrier landing with the rafale. He gave me quite a few “scoop” nothing extraordinary but still interesting when you are gleaning every piece of information.

Just to pick some of the stuff which didn’t appear in the press (many thing he said is already known), he told that when encountering F18 and F18 SH from the Roosevelt (dogfighting), the rafale didn’t suffer a single loss despite the fact that some of the hornets were equipped with JHMS+ Aim 9X. So he really balanced the quality of this feature. He recognized that they were a bit anxious before encountering such a type of threat but in the end it wasn’t really an issue. Second point he said that the SH looses a lot of energy when brutally changing of trajectory and then started to sink…In fact when their US navy counter parts couldn’t point their nose in the direction of the rafale to be within the aim9X firing envelope they strated to do this kind of brutal maneuver which made them loose their energy.


Other “scoop” concerning the rafale vs typhoon…This MN pilot already downed a typhoon with a two supersonic drop tank config (for the rafale) in a simulated gun dogfight. It took him three turns to take the advantage. So he didn’ felt that there was a big gap of performance between the two aircrafts in this area. He admitted that the outcome could have bee different as there is always a part of luck in this type of engagement but he insisted that both aircraft are quite similar for dog fighting skills. He also point out that it is impossible to know the real outcome of a BVR fight since many parameters are unknown. For instance rafale jamming war modes are never used in exercises just like other modern aircrafts.

That is it for the MN rafale pilot.


After the demos, later in the afternoon I went back and talked with an AdA rafale pilote from St Dizier. Just to pick the few interesting things he said (that are not really in the press)…He said that the rafale is in his opinion an excellent aircraft even if in some areas it is not the best. He said that the SH is better to carry heavy loads (it is bigger) that the Typhoon is better at high speeds and that Russian aircrafts are very impressive even if they are less sophisticated than their western counterparts. He said that there are two items were the rafale is above the competition according to pilots feedbacks in international exercises (he mentioned the typhoon the SH and the gripen). It was the Man Machine Interface which is top notch in the rafale according to him as well as the sensor fusion. He even talked about American generals visting St Dizier impressed by the MMI and the level of the situation awareness…(ok here he couldn’t dissimulate his pride at this point!)

The very interesting thing about this pilot is that he already flew with the RBE2 AESA and while he wasn’t specific he said like a children trying a new toy that the gain of performance is huge in every areas. He didn’t try to dissimulate the “wow” factor that he had when trying it.


Perhaps the most interesting meeting I had was with a DGA engineer which was responsible for the AtG weapons integration for the rafale….
So we should soon see the rafale operationally carrying GBU24…Firstly in the centerline pylone (*1) and after on the middle wing stations (*2). On this matter I also saw a reduced scale rafale moke up with three GBU24 on Dassault’s inside stand.

For the OSF-it and the absence of IR channel he said that it was because the pilots didn’t really know how to use it…Just to say that it was not that useful in real life considering the mica IR can already provide IR imaging with a greta field of view. They are integrated in the weapon system. So they preferred to dedicate all the resources to get a very good updated TV channel.

The new TDA rafale rocket pod was also displayed and he told that work in under way to integrate it. He also explained why it is so long to integrate weapons to an aircraft and the difference with crash programs. For instance only the rafale F3 will be able to fully exploit the GBU12. For the moment the firing envelope is very restrictive and it is difficult/energy consuming to use it in A-stan.
Damocles pods arrival is the AdA is imminent with the M2000 and the rafale. The first pods won’t have the rover system though because they aren’t from the newest XF version.


Other noteworthy things the rafale M displayed on Dassault static display has 4 meteors and 4 micas including two on the new outer wing pylons. Most of the reduced scale moke up in Dassault’s inside stand was fitted with micas on these new hard points.


That is it for today…I also talked to AdA commandos (I could handle FAMAS, minimi or sniper rifles), USAF personnel but that was about other military topics. I hope I forgot anything but I am going back to le Bourget Thursday with an access to dassault’s static display this time so I’ll be able to ask other questions…

Thanks Arthuro.
I'm a little bit confused about the MICA IR acting as IRST. You quoted the engineer with "the mica IR can already provide IR imaging with a greta field of view.".
Two thoughts here:
1.) The Rafale's IRST azimuth coverage is given with +/-90°, that of the MICA IR is +/-60°. So how could it be greater, except for elevation where the IRST is limited in look down?
2.) Imaging? Can the MICA IR seeker deliver a target image which is presented on the MFDs?

I have my doubts that the MICA IR seeker is capable of detecting and tracking multiple targets at longer ranges than ~30 km in best conditions. So either the IRST in the OSF was complete crap, albeit the reports of superb performance or there were other serious issues. A dedicated IRST should be more flexible and better performing, providing sensor outputs on the displays. There might be things we don't know about the MICA IR, but in the end it's an AAM, not a Sensor in the first place.

[TMor]

Originally Posted by SpudmanWP

Do you really think a MICA's ~10Kg seeker can perform like a ~100Kg IRST?

This isn't what i said.

I think they renounce on the multi target capability, and also the range.

he said that it was because the pilots didn’t really know how to use it

I think it has to do with tactics too...

[arthuro]

hello scorpion,

I understand your questions and to tell the truth I have the same questions as yours...What is written is what I have been told but I agree it sounds wierd.

The way I understand it, is it is some kind of compromises and not an ideal solution.

I think they are waiting for a new generation IR seaker so that the IR channel of the OSF will bring a real "added value".

probably the IR seeker of the mica can already fulfill a significant % of the work achieved by the IR OSF and thus it would makes it a less relevant solution when you take into account the added price...

I'll try to get more info on that thursday if I can...