He is back! He is angry! Rafale News Four!

[arthuro]

Originally Posted by Jackonicko
The testing of OSF, OTIS and Pirate in A-G roles, and Damocles and Litening in A-A was always planned to be part of the core, 30-sortie evaluation, Nic.

In fact this wasn't planned. In the article it is said something like "to the great surprise of the french pilots..." At the end it tells that this testing of osf and the damocles pod out of their range of use was a success as well as the test of the RBE2 AESA on the rafale B301.

[arthuro]

I found the article inquestion it was on page 1 of the thread.

From todays air&cosms : (p8) about the swiss evaluation :

Google translation :

[Jackonicko]

I know that EF GmbH were expecting the Swiss to want to look at air-to-air use of Litening, and A-G use of Pirate, so I can't believe that the French team weren't expecting them to look at 'non traditional' use of their sensors.

Nor do I believe that the extra flights were to look at anything they didn't look at on Gripen and won't look at on Typhoon.

[arthuro]

That is your own claim but i would rather trust A&C.

[arthuro]

...And since pirate has no TV/laser range finder I don't see how it could be an as comprhensive AtG testing as the OSF. So I am quite skeptik about your claim.

the OSF and Damocles have both laser designating capabilities so it makes sens to test them in different modes, but PIRATE and lightening I don't know...I am not an expert though.

I don't see the frenchmen lying...What would have been the interest for them ??? don't see liars everywhere ! It is almost as if you were seeing a plot conspiracy from the french...

[LordAssap]

Originally Posted by Nicolas10

Here I agree with jon lake. I wonder what lordassap is smoking, but I'd sure like to have some.

Nic

REALY? you should READ the whole article saying Typhoon would be submited to the SAME treatment and for me been a BOY get a life Mr LAKE.

[Rom_un]

Originally Posted by arthuro

I don't see the frenchmen lying...What would have been the interest for them ???

Perhaps to say that 'rafale can do everything, include alternatives uses'...

We must notice that they say " outside their area of use: OSF in air to ground modes "
They already have procedure for it :
- calibration of the 'central inertial'
- target id
- damage evaluation

OSF was mainly designed for A/A but the A/G role (AASM strike) is there using the TV.

What should be outside their area of use ? strange communication.

For me, i think that the Reco-NG is enouth to justify 9 extra flights.
High-speed-&-low-level IR-reco and two-way datalink

[LordAssap]

Nicolas, babas cools; pas de familiarites s'il vous plait, je suis non fumeur...

Jackotwisto; keep your family and durt matters for yoursel please as well as insultsing people you keep taking others for your usual ineducated fanboys, i bet i could be your dad as for a matter of education we all know what you are worth and it aint much when it come to the subject of aeorspace..

Night and supersonic flights were also carried out. http://www.ar.admin.ch/internet/arma...22451.nsb.html

I guess Typhoon missed out of these no?

The flights undertaken during the evaluation are part of the existing flight quotas and did not lead to more flights on the airbases in question. http://www.ar.admin.ch/internet/arma...22451.nsb.html

So they are talking as much manure as our dear Jack then???

the Eurofighter, is planned for this coming Thursday. This candidate will be subjected to the same test program as the „Gripen“ and the „Rafale“. http://www.ar.admin.ch/internet/arma...22451.nsb.html

Looks like the uninformed always sees the world to their own image.

On the engine matter:

Sens -Some new parts of the M88-3 were introduced into the M88-2, which did become the M88-2,5 or the M88-ECO. ECO as economical does sound much better than the M88-2,5
compromise.

When you're finished INVENTING yourself some knowledge and FACTS...

Q: Since WHEN exactly does the technologic evolutions of M88 come by HALF increments???

M88-3 thrust was coming from oversized 73kg/s compressor added to the SAME M88 core.

NOT fitable to ECO not to mention the 6 years of development between the first runs at 95 and 90 kN.

Sens -To avoid misunderstandings, there is nothing wrong to get the best from development work done already-

There a lot wrong at writing manure by the bucket...

c-seven LordAssap or global press actually gave a link about it in the flow of his datas but I can't bother to dig.

N'en deplaise a certain, Lordassap et global press sont DEUX persones bien distinctes, quand a tes links, etant donne la valeur de ces archives tu devrais peut etre les conserver...

M88-3: 1999

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...necma-m88.html

-A further development, the M88-3, rated at 9.5t thrust, still awaits funding, but has been benchtested on a privately funded demonstrator. "We are proposing the M88-3 to the French government for the future standard of the Rafale in the early 2000s and to prospective export customers", says Massot.-
DATE:09/06/99
SOURCE:Flight International
Snecma M88

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchi...0-%201250.html

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchi...0-%201251.html

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchi...0-%201252.html

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchi...0-%201253.html

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchi...0-%201254.html

ECO: 2005
http://www.snecma.com/spip.php?artic..._recherche=M88

Successful tests by Snecma Moteurs of a higher-performance M88 demonstrator
Courcouronnes, January 17, 2005

Snecma Moteurs successfully carried out the first tests of a technology demonstrator designed to enhance M88 engine performance and pave the way for future upgraded versions.

These tests are part of a technology demonstration program co-funded by the French Ministry of Defense. The program aims to demonstrate lower operating costs and higher dispatch reliability for the Rafale’s M88-2 engine, by incorporating innovative new technologies, as well as studying the feasibility of developing a variant combining higher thrust with lower fuel burn and weight. It will ensure the competitiveness of future versions of the Rafale, in terms of both flight performance and payload capacity.

"Snecma Moteurs is very pleased with the success of these initial tests," said Jean-Luc Engerand, head of Snecma Moteurs’ military engine division. "It marks a new phase in the development of our military engines and paves the way for future upgraded M88 versions."

The initial series of tests was used to characterize the engine’s steady-state performance, with settings for versions offering both 75kN of thrust and 90kN, at full throttle with afterburner. Performance and endurance tests of the demonstrator will continue in early 2005.

Designed for the Rafale multirole fighter, the M88 is the first member of a family of new-generation engines for 21st century combat and advanced training aircraft. The first production engine was delivered in 1996, and the M88-2 version now powers both the air force and naval versions of the Rafale. It is particularly well suited to low-altitude penetration and high-altitude interception missions.

ECO have been benchtested for two years and reached 90 kN in Jan 2005

About the latest Jackonicko ouburst:

Typical reverse psychology, read; Typhoon got reliability problems, have to be the same for Rafale, and we saw this about just EVERY single Tyhooon issues over the years this character have been entertaining us...

Expect MORE of it because Typhoon isn't sorted just yet, far from it and its developement is NOWHERE near as advanced nor going the same rate as Rafale.


PHT progam. Still going ON in 2008...

2007

[LordAssap]

Rom OSF was mainly designed for A/A but the A/G role (AASM strike) is there using the TV.

They use the TV in BOTH roles, the difference comes from the design:

3-5 micron band + 8-12 micron...

The FSO will provide all-weather air-to-air and air-to-ground surveillance and targeting and, says Thomson-CSF Optronique, is the first such system in the West to work on the 3-5 micron band as well as the usual 8-12 micron wavelength, the former providing "considerably improved detection in humid conditions".
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...optronics.html

Thomson-CSF Optronique is also developing the Damoclese 3-5 micron infrared air-to-ground attack and "pseudo-recognition" pod for the Rafale and Mirage 2000-9s ordered by the United Arab Emirates (UAE) . Flight tests are due to begin next year, with delivery of the first system in 2004.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...optronics.html

1) OSF is positined where it can look for A2A targets better than A2G targets.

2) It uses BOTH wavelength which are morte suited to A2A and A2g but is primaraly an A2A device.

The FSO provides air-to-air and air-to-surface surveillance. The air-to-air component and the air-to-surface is still under development. "The first flights we have made have given us good confidence in the system," says Thomson Optronique.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-on-track.html

The infrared scanner works in the 3-5mn and 8-12mn bands, providing a 3-5mn capability for the first time in the west, says Thomson Optronique commercial director Jean-Claude Vergnères. This wavelength provides "considerably better detection capability in humid conditions", he adds.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-on-track.html

Thomson Optronique declines to give exact performance details of the FSO, but it is understood that at 20,000ft, for example, in air-to-air mode, the system will have an infrared detection capability of around 130knm, while laser ranging is possible out to about 33km, and the TV is capable of looking out to 45km.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-on-track.html

What should be outside their area of use ? strange communication.

Everything which isn't originaly planed as use for the device and A2G wasn't its design use in the first place, the FACT that it CAN do it doesn't mean it is specificaly designed for the role.

For me, i think that the Reco-NG is enouth to justify 9 extra flights.
High-speed-&-low-level IR-reco and two-way datalink

Damocles in A2A is another example...

[Rom_un]

Originally Posted by Lordassap

Quote:
Rom OSF was mainly designed for A/A but the A/G role (AASM strike) is there using the TV.
They use the TV in BOTH roles, the difference comes from the design:

??? did i say "but the A/G role is the only one to use the TV", NO, leave us

Everything which isn't originaly planed as use for the device and A2G wasn't its design use in the first place, the FACT that it CAN do it doesn't mean it is specificaly designed for the role.

??? That 's different from "area of use". For exemple A/G is in the area of use of the Typhoon. Thank you and leave us.

Damocles in A2A is another example...

I was refering to "the Swiss to want to look at air-to-air use of Litening" So the reason for extra flight ? Another useless intervention.

BTW, you already insult me on a french forum, so you don't need to do it there.


Edit:
End of the Swiss evaluation :

The Rafale's extra flights was for testing the new capabilities of the AESA

[LordAssap]

OSF was mainly designed for A/A but the A/G role (AASM strike) is there using the TV.

THIS is what you said.

BTW, you already insult me on a french forum, so you don't need to do it there.

Appart from bieng unnecessasrly controversial and playing "victim of abuse", what do YOU bring to the debate?

Please show ME insulting YOU...

??? That 's different from "area of use". For exemple A/G is in the area of use of the Typhoon. Thank you and leave us.

So Typhoon is a device and is NOT multirole then???

You're twisting yourself to knots....

Another useless intervention.

YOUR usual standard, please do not try to compare yourself to those who do their home work because obviously you'll get upset after a while.

As usual you keep skiping reality and try to turn tables around, if i were you i'd learn instead of complaining you are put back to your spot when you can't make a point without getting it wrong.

The Rafale's extra flights was for testing the new capabilities of the AESA

This doesn't make of A&C information on the OSF/Damocles tests a FALSE one, only a complementary one.

So since the Swiss stament is so important, it becomes CLEAR that Typhoon was a given the SAME quota of flying hours for the SAME flight-test program than Gripen and Rafale, it only missed a few hours of availability due to lack of reliability.

the Eurofighter, is planned for this coming Thursday. This candidate will be subjected to the same test program as the „Gripen“ and the „Rafale“. http://www.ar.admin.ch/internet/arma...22451.nsb.html

End of debate.


And this "MOD! this guy is insulting poor me" thing is TIRING and ultimately useless, i am very careful not to.

[arthuro]

rom un

A fighter jet is not a mass product good so I don't see the interest of lying when the swiss are doing the evaluation and know the truth...

No need to answer to Lord Assap / global... He is a waste of time and is polluting this thread. He doesn't know the basics rule of courtesy and is insulting everyone. He was even banned from the french forum which is quite favorable with the rafale...It gives you an idea of how mad he is...!

[Rom_un]

Originally Posted by LordAssap

Please show ME insulting YOU...

Originally Posted by LordAssap in AirDefenseForum

Essaie un stage a Scotland Yard au lieu de decortiquer Jane's c'est pas encore a ton niveau

i bet i could be your dad as for a matter of education we all know what you are worth

and this is YOU insulting HIM

So Typhoon is a device and is NOT multirole then???

" A/G is in the area of use " is different than " A/G is THE area of use " did you see the missing 'in'; may i explain to you the difference between equal and include ?

Even in French or in English, you still have big problems to read.

[LordAssap]

and this is YOU insulting HIM

ONE: I do not like to be called BOY by people TEN years or so younger than me.

Originally Posted by LordAssap in AirDefenseForum
Essaie un stage a Scotland Yard au lieu de decortiquer Jane's c'est pas encore a ton niveau

Insult? You want to compare this to what you boys are submining ME with?

A pissing contest it what you start about it and complain about being "insulted", well too bad there is a definition for insulting people and i do not like your bunch insulting other posters intelligence (and mine) and pretending that you are because obviousdly the insult here in these quotes are simply MISSING.

TWO: If you weren't that BIASED you'd show his continuous flow of insults toward me and other posters before i dig them for you.

THREE: You still FAIL to prove i insulted YOU and other people anyway; point IS OSF i designed primarily as an A2A device.

" A/G is in the area of use " is different than " A/G is THE area of use " did you see the missing 'in'; may i explain to you the difference between equal and include ?

Whatever WAY you spin and twist it you're making a FUSS about nothing as usual.

Rom OSF was mainly designed for A/A but the A/G role (AASM strike) is there using the TV.

They use the TV in BOTH roles, the difference comes from the design:

This is what you're revving about with all your pretendence spin and twist.

Even in French or in English, you still have big problems to read.

Speak for yourself please, you apparently doesn't read anything on the subject of OSF and let alone the links i post.

arthuro rom un No need to answer to Lord Assap/global... He is a waste of time and is polluting this thread. He doesn't know the basics rule of courtesy and is insulting everyone. He was even banned from the french forum which is quite favorable with the rafale...It gives you an idea of how mad he is...!

You still cant figure we are a lot more aware/educated/informed than you are and two different people can you?

NOW SHOW us Me insulting everyone please!

[Rom_un]

Originally Posted by LordAssap

Quote:
Originally Posted by LordAssap in AirDefenseForum
Essaie un stage a Scotland Yard au lieu de decortiquer Jane's c'est pas encore a ton niveau
Insult? You want to compare this to what you boys are submining ME with?

A pissing contest it what you start about ....

@LordAssap Yes it is an insult. I don't care about other, this was another place and i didn't insult you.

[Rob L]

Originally Posted by arthuro

Rob is really the most bias and nationalist poster on this the rafale thread with fonk, you can relly feel all the resentment he has. I remember he whished that dassault would exit the fighter market...Which is a shame for an aviation enthousiast. He is the only one here claiming that the rafale is a failure but he only represents himself and is not authoritative at all. In fact his opinion his insignificant.

Of course I hope Dassault exits the market... along with Boeing, Lockheed, etc... all but BAE Systems & EADS Deutschland. That I am supporting a product that I know will keep my countrymen in employment is not nationalist, its logical. I do not want Boeing or Dassault to fail because I hate their countries, just because it is better for my countries if Eurofighter is successful. There is a difference in that. But anyways calling me nationalist just shows how little you know about me, because that truly is a funny statement.

Fact is the rafale is technically a great success,according to its customer and is many times praised by French member of parliaments from both the majority and the opposition. (something extremely rare for a big military programme). If you read the reports of the french paliament defense commeete (composed of deputies from different parties), they all say in their annual report (that I already posted on this thread), that in the end living the EFA programme was the right decision. In the end It is the AdA and the french taxpayer to decide whether it is a success or not. The fact that the AdA and the taxpayer in the voice of the deputies commited to the F3+ standard is a good indication...Should I remind that the rafale despite being a one nation programme has several years in advance in terms of development ?

This is exactly what I'm talking about, it is impossible to criticize Rafale without at least one Frenchman getting personal and resorting to insults ("most nationalist"). I never said Rafale is a technical failure... it is not. I said it is a failure or an industrial failure... both for the same reason, despite being/used to being ahead in development years it has secured no exports compared to Typhoons 87.

True the rafale has still no exports, but at least it performed very well in technical evaluation in opened competitions. The lack of exports is mainly due to france lack of influence comparing to the USA or a four nations consortium and the fact that it uses mostly only french weapons which can also be seen as an asset in some cases.

And I'm sure you know that because you have seen all the classified data... US embassy protocols, etc.... but I'm biased eh? Funny how a little later you talk about adapting "reality" to one's own views.

secondly, as it has been officially stated the rafale doesn't need any export to be viable although it couldn't hurt. The fact that the DGA ordered the next batch of improved F3+ standard is an indication.

That does not change the fact that if you look at the Mirage series the Rafale is a setback and industrially an epic failure.

thirdly they are still a few campaigns running so it is a bit soon for Rob to tout and tell all his hate! Imagine if the rafale won the MRCA competition, he would look stupid no ?

Again, insults. However, I think MRCA will go Russian and if Eurofighter has not more than 126 exports by the time MRCA is finally decided (2011?) it would be a major setback for the programme.

Last but not least many aircrafts have been regarded as being successful without exports. If the AdA can performs very well with the rafale then it will be a success. Quality vs quantity is also something which have already be seen in aviation history during the cold war...

Not by me in industrial terms. I would classify Tornado as an industrial failure too and that secured 120 exports. If Typhoon does not breach at least 200 it might too be an industrial failure.

And I always reckognized the typhoon strong points, you are spinning the truth rob, because you are so one sided you want to conform the reality to your views. Your only pleasure is to see the rafale becoming a failure you have nothing to do with aviation enthusiasts. It is true that I can be bias since I like the rafale very much, but still I have borders that I don't want to cross. I would never whish the typhoon to fail.

You are so unbiased that you are, unlike me, becoming insulting on a personal level again.

[bgnewf]

Moderators.

This is getting out of hand. The personal back and forth in this thread in particular is ensuring that any good information that we all can benefit from looking over is lost in a sea of noise.

Perhaps we can have you launch a no holds barred "fanboy"/"my plane/country is better than yours" thread so that those inclined to have a pi$$ing contest can pi$$ away in peace.

[GlobalPress]

Originally Posted by Jackonicko

KF,

The nine extra flight detail was added to the thread to counter an over-colourful interpretation of a very minor Typhoon serviceability which led to one flight being delayed from one afternoon to the next morning.

If you're going to read major implications into minor changes to Typhoon's flying programme, it's only fair to acknowledge that Rafale's flying programme has also been subject to last minute change.

As I've said before, it may be nothing, or it may be indicative of real but relatively trivial problems. It may even be a good sign. It's unlikely to mark a show-stopping problem.

We'll find out the reasons soon enough, I believe.

Evaluation du Dassault Rafale ( du 13 octobre au 4 novembre 2008 )
Les essais en vol et au sol de l'appareil français Rafale ont commencé le 13 octobre 2008 et ont compté 39 vols, représentant approximativement 60 heures de vol. Le nombre de vols plus élevé qu'avec le Gripen et l'Eurofighter a servi aux tests élargis d'un deuxième type de radar. Le Rafale a été suivi de l'Eurofighter, troisième et dernier candidat.

http://www.news.admin.ch/dokumentati...r&msg-id=23556

ohhh lalala, Damnnnnnned... Jacky the lake of knowledges might be depressed!

arturo, a second radar system doesn't mean AESA antenna...

its always a great honor to be melted with Lordassap, he already has prouved to be the only one here to know about what he's talking about!

most of ppl should stay on their playstation games!

[GlobalPress]

Originally Posted by bgnewf

Moderators.

This is getting out of hand. The personal back and forth in this thread in particular is ensuring that any good information that we all can benefit from looking over is lost in a sea of noise.

Perhaps we can have you launch a no holds barred "fanboy"/"my plane/country is better than yours" thread so that those inclined to have a pi$$ing contest can pi$$ away in peace.

totally agree with that, lil englanders should get a stop to the pub to remember their old fashioned colonial empire age, and no more coming here to flame this topic!

thx

[arthuro]

Ok rob, so lets focus on the industrial aspect since we agree that the rafale is technically a success for its customer and in technical evaluations.

In terms of costs the rafale is still profitable for dassault they manage to have a very flexible assembly line with workers which can work either for the rafale or the falcon jets. So it is not an industrial failure for Dassault or the french government. At least on a financial point of view.

I think that you implyed that it is a failure because of the lack of exports and it could lead dassault to exit the market. It is true that the rafale is behind and it was unlucky. All reports from indepent medias as well as official sources like dassauly or the french government tell that the rafale performed very well in technical evaluations.
The rafale is still running in swiss, greece, india, lybia and brazil. So don't you think it is a bit early to claim anything ? You will perhaps be right here in the long run but it is too soon to claim anything.

I don't think dassault will exit the fighter market soon. Certainly Dassault will not lead alone a new fighter programme but it will still participate in this market in the same way as BAE does.

In terms of know how, the Neuron is here to maintain that plus it is the same engineers which are working on the businness jets. Another factor is that dassault still attracts some of the best french engineers and enjoys a very low turn over. Another purpose of the Neuron is to develop a partneship for a possible new fighter jet programme. It wants to create a new partnership governance because for them the typhoon programme organization and management were a failure.

Last but not least, the ability to design and produce a fighter jet is viewed by the french government as a strategic orientation like for the nuclear detterence...So we shouldn't overlook political will here.

And I don't like your attitude...to speak on an aviation forum just to hope that an aircraft will fail is despisable.

EDIT : And you forget one thing, producing one rafale for dassault represents much more volume of activity than producing one typhoon for BAE. So to be fair you can't compare directly the numbers of aircrafts produced in industrial terms.

[Jackonicko]

Les essais en vol et au sol de l'appareil français Rafale ont commencé le 13 octobre 2008 et ont compté 39 vols, représentant approximativement 60 heures de vol. Le nombre de vols plus élevé qu'avec le Gripen et l'Eurofighter a servi aux tests élargis d'un deuxième type de radar. Le Rafale a été suivi de l'Eurofighter, troisième et dernier candidat.

Explained! Nine extra flights needed because they were flying both RBE-2 and RBE-2 AESA jets. That's good news for Rafale - they won't be judging he aircraft according to the PESA radar.

"Typhoon was a given the SAME quota of flying hours for the SAME flight-test program than Gripen and Rafale, it only missed a few hours of availability due to lack of reliability." No evidence for such a charge. Quel surprise. What a biased little twit.

"The flights undertaken during the evaluation are part of the existing flight quotas and did not lead to more flights on the airbases in question."

EG the evaluation flights (for all types) did not lead to more flights (in total) at these air bases (overall, not by Rafale), because Swiss air force activities were reduced to compensate. It doesn't mean that Rafale didn't fly extra flights. Quel surprise. What a brainless little twit.

"Jackotwisto; keep your family and durt matters for yoursel please as well as insultsing people you keep taking others for your usual ineducated fanboys, i bet i could be your dad as for a matter of education we all know what you are worth and it aint much when it come to the subject of aeorspace." Quel surprise. What a rude and ignorant little twit.

Durt? Insultsing? Ineducated? Aint? Aeorspace? I know that English isn't your first language, but for goodness' sake..... especially when you are calling other people 'uneducated'.

Si vous ne pouvez pas orthographier des mots comme l'espace, saleté, insulter, inculte, et ne savent pas où placer une apostrophe dans le mot ain't, puis il est assez facile à vérifier.

You could be my Dad? Only if you're more than 60, and only if my mum (RIP) had made a habit of sleeping with rude, brainless, little twits.

As for education.... If you really must drag this up, you're an ex AdlA spanner-monkey. I'm a professional aerospace journalist, with University degrees, and I am an RAF trained pilot.

[Sintra]

God

This thread seems to have been written somewhere around Vimeiro/Talavera/Buçaco/TorresVedras/Albuera/Barrosa/Vitoria/Waterloo (pick your choice) two centuries ago...

[u_fokker]

Originally Posted by arthuro

In terms of costs the rafale is still profitable for dassault they manage to have a very flexible assembly line with workers which can work either for the rafale or the falcon jets. So it is not an industrial failure for Dassault or the french government. At least on a financial point of view.
.

Ironic quote!

Dassault to increase stake in Rafale partner as business jet slowdown bites

DATE:02/12/08
SOURCE:Flight International

What a difference a global financial crisis makes. As recently as late August, Dassault Aviation executive chairman Charles Edelstenne was adamant that his company had no interest in increasing its 5% stake in Thales. However, late November brought a U-turn, when it was revealed that Dassault had entered negotiations to buy the 20.8% Thales stake held by telecommunications group Alcatel-Lucent.

The change of heart was prompted by a sudden darkening of the business jet forecast, argues defence analyst Francis Tusa. He notes that "last year, everything was riding high with business jets", but adds that enough has happened since July/August for the current outlook to be "arguably the single biggest thing" behind Dassault's move.

The news from October's National Business Aviation Association convention was grim, certainly. Worryingly few big order deals were signed and exhibitors reported aisle traffic substantially down on last year.

The onset of recession in the business jet market has sharpened the need to win export orders for Dassault's Rafale combat aircraft, for which Thales produces €15 million ($19 million) of equipment per shipset. Thus far, the Rafale sales effort has struggled to get out of the blocks internationally, a situation which is causing "a degree of desperation in France", says Tusa.

In his view, Dassault's move for a bigger stake in Thales is partly driven by "a belief that they will not be able to see any Rafale exports unless there is a shake-up of how Rafale as a concept is managed". He adds: "If the assumption is that there has been a dislocation of sales attempts on Rafale, this should provide a better focus than we've seen to date."

As part of efforts to grow the Rafale's appeal, Thales Airborne Systems has begun production of Europe's first active electronically scanned array radar. It will start delivering AESA RBE-2 radars to the French air force from 2010 under a €200 million contract covering final development and the initial production of up to four units.

Beyond Rafale, a bigger stake in Thales offers Dassault "broader exposure to the French defence market, but also a broader exposure internationally, which has appeal and interest", says Ben Fidler, an analyst at Deutsche Bank. Among Thales' major defence projects is the UK's €1 billion Watchkeeper UAV, for which it is the prime contractor.

EADs interest

Dassault's €38-per-share bid, which values the Thales stake at €1.57 billion, came after EADS reportedly submitted a €44-per-share bid but failed to follow through. Of EADS's temporary interest, Tusa says: "It always seemed pretty obvious that the French state would say no."

The French state holds a 27% stake in Thales, and hence its government has a veto over any deal. "Were EADS to take it over, the belief, certainly in France, is that they would split the group up," says Tusa. "Is that something France would like to see? No."

EADS arguably has its hands full given delays to the A400M military transport and A380 and the need to finalise design of the A350 XWB. There is also the possibility that a move for the Thales stake would have met internal opposition.

"The German side of EADS was not particularly happy with this," Tusa suggests. "It was seen as a bit of an attempt to inflate the French side of EADS."

Either way, EADS holds a 46% stake in Dassault and is consequently set to gain indirect ownership of a Thales stake when the talks conclude on 15 December. One would expect no hitches, given that Thales Alenia Space chief executive Reynald Seznac has already been vocal in his support for Dassault's bid.

The deal will be seen as a response to the French government's defence white paper published in June, which envisaged consolidation of the national defence industry.

"The white paper is actually yielding some concrete results, something many did not expect," says Olivier Brochet, an analyst at Natixis Securities.

Meanwhile, Alcatel-Lucent is striving to overturn seven consecutive quarters of losses. On 25 November it named its third chief financial officer in less than a year. It is now the task of one Paul Tufano to ensure that the Thales stake sale goes smoothly.

Has business jet slowdown led Dassault to prioritise Rafale exports?

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-slowdown.html

[Rob L]

Originally Posted by arthuro

Ok rob, so lets focus on the industrial aspect since we agree that the rafale is technically a success for its customer and in technical evaluations.

Oh I didn't say it is a success, I, unlike you, do not pretend to know classified data, so now, any of the current jets can not be viewed as a success or not in technical terms... we have indications but not more. That by the way includes Typhoon.

In terms of costs the rafale is still profitable for dassault they manage to have a very flexible assembly line with workers which can work either for the rafale or the falcon jets. So it is not an industrial failure for Dassault or the french government. At least on a financial point of view.

I would rather say the industrial failure of Rafale is compensated by the excellent business jet business of Dassault.

I think that you implyed that it is a failure because of the lack of exports and it could lead dassault to exit the market. It is true that the rafale is behind and it was unlucky. All reports from indepent medias as well as official sources like dassauly or the french government tell that the rafale performed very well in technical evaluations.
The rafale is still running in swiss, greece, india, lybia and brazil. So don't you think it is a bit early to claim anything ? You will perhaps be right here in the long run but it is too soon to claim anything.

I disagree. I see its chances as slim in Greece, India and Switzerland. Brazil and Lybia a perhaps. It might well export sometime but in the end Dassault will loose its good reputation for export aircraft it built with the Mirage series. The Rafale will in my mind lag behind Gripen on two and Typhoon on one in the export market for European fighters.

I don't think dassault will exit the fighter market soon. Certainly Dassault will not lead alone a new fighter programme but it will still participate in this market in the same way as BAE does.

Oh I don't think so. BAE Systems and Dassault are not comparable, for one BAE Systems military air business is larger than the whole civil and military part of Dassault Aviation combined. Secondly, the amount of UAV/UCAV work BAE Systems is doing far outpaces Dassault's investment (Taranis, Raven, Corax, Flaviir, Mantis, Herti, Soarer, Fury, autogyro, zeppelins, etc... vs. Petit Duc, Moyen Duc, part of Neuron). Actually, BAE Systems is leading a new combat aircraft programme, actually they are leading two new national combat aircraft programmes (R&D programmes but still), Taranis and Mantis.

In terms of know how, the Neuron is here to maintain that plus it is the same engineers which are working on the businness jets. Another factor is that dassault still attracts some of the best french engineers and enjoys a very low turn over. Another purpose of the Neuron is to develop a partneship for a possible new fighter jet programme. It wants to create a new partnership governance because for them the typhoon programme organization and management were a failure.

Partnership? Perhaps because they realize Rafale is an industrial failure.

Last but not least, the ability to design and produce a fighter jet is viewed by the french government as a strategic orientation like for the nuclear detterence...So we shouldn't overlook political will here.

What? Yet, after the industrial fiasco that Rafale is France has shifted its stance and is now collaborating on Neuron. The UK on the other hand is continuing its stance of collaboration on production (Eurofighter, F35) and design & development upkeep by national programmes (EAP, XG40, Replica, EFE, Taranis, Mantis). It seems the UK approach of keeping design skills through national R&D programmes and increasing volume by collaborational build programmes has been vindicated.

And I don't like your attitude...to speak on an aviation forum just to hope that an aircraft will fail is despisable.

I'm not surprised that you're insulting me.... again.

EDIT : And you forget one thing, producing one rafale for dassault represents much more volume of activity than producing one typhoon for BAE. So to be fair you can't compare directly the numbers of aircrafts produced in industrial terms.

To be fair, the Saudi maintenance contract alone equals Dassault's profits of the next decade. If I were you, I wouldn't even go down that route. We are talking about two jet programmes, otherwise we'd have to compare the whole military air business of BAE Systems with Dassault, because unlike Dassault, BAE Systems has more than one or two military products.

[djcross]

Has Dassault offered to set up an assembly line in their potential customers' countries like the the Americans did in the TUSAS facility in Ankara, Turkey which built 150 F-16Cs? By doing so, Dassault will make a profit off the assemblies sold to the non-French assembly line. By not doing so, Dassault makes 0% profit by losing the competition. Maybe it's time for Dassault to change their business model.

[c-seven]

Come on, some comment are completely idiotic. Let's not go on that ground (for the frenchy mainly, for some idiotic union jack waver, well... it's not surprising)

Now let's study the spins of the London Joseph Goebel spining school:

1- The Rafale is like a fruit which has stayed for to long in the shop window and that nobody want anymore LOL.

Well, Korea and Singapour attempts were almost kamikaze attempts. It fail but the fact it went so far in the competition is already an archievement in a so well guarded US field. Saudi Arabia is a traditional buyer of british kits.
Still nothing surprising at this point.

2- The french are desperate with their Rafale

Tell you what: the desperate one is not exactly this one. Eurofighter has 4 production lines too feed. With the previous cost overrun they don't have anymore budget for future improvments, and deputies don't want anymore to waste more money (to not been lynched by their population). They desesperatly need more orders to make the production lines work beyong the Tranche3 - which T3 is not even secured. In spite their effort they can't close the gap, they slip, to make one step ahead they need to spend 4 time more money and endure 4 times more delais than the French when they make 2 steps ahead.
AESA, furure version of the EJ-200, (real) data fusion, A to G radar modes, recco pod, electronic war pod, reliability, even the gun, nothing works properly. All those issues suck, and specially suck all the few money left. And little by little the ship is sinking and it shows more and more.
To make a come back they'd need to pour a new mountain of $$$, or, why not, make another plane. But they don't have the will anymore, they are tired and the members of the Eurofighter mafia now hate each other and just wait for one pretext to pull the gun out and shoot at each other.
The japanese for instance would have kept trying tenaciously. But not them. They are tired and prefer now to give their soul to the F35 and close this painful folder.
A bit exagerated but that's more or less the reality.

In another hand Rafale's production line is secured up to 2023, Dassault earn money with the current little production rate (anyway when Dassault will lose money on something: America will become comunist before)
The production rate can be doubled instantaneously. All future kits are funded in a well planed roadmap. With few funds they manage to widen the gap, Eurofighter just can"t follow the rythm which drive some british The Sun readers here crazy.

Other desperate ones?

Let's not talk about MIG. They just can't build fighters anymore or almost. They had to deliver used Mig-29 to the Algerians who returned them ASSAP with a kick in the ass for MIG, and bought SUs instead. There are no orders for the Mig-35, not a single one. Every ingeneer at MIG left for Sukhoi a long time ago, only the alcoolics remain.

The Gripen?
A good spin case. Probably from the era when BAE was in charge of the marketing folder. A americano-swedish plane with a ridiculous home base and a as ridiculous export base (every export were 10-20 pieces, the Mirage 2000-5 has done much better). They must make a low cost Logan to make it afordable and competitive. It's maintenance friendly... indeed. There's nothing in it LOL.
The NG: a paper plane. They want us to believe that it'll keep all the good points of today, light, agile, maintenance friendly, all this but with more weight, gasoline, equipments, etc.
Don't make me laugh. It doesn't work that way.
They break a previous optimisation which made sens, and they won't find any other optimisation without compromises. More weight on the Gripen? With current thrust? Forget. Better buy a Falcon 7X and put missiles on it.

All in all the Rafale is the more on the tracks. Not brilliant yet, but in the middle of those ducks, it's not difficult.
(Note well that when we see the F35 either...)
And now that Dassault is gona own Thales (world 2nd biggest electronic supplier for aviation). So even more on track.

The AESA is there, it impresses, the M88-ECO is comming soon, the gun fires fast and strait, many projets are under finishing: satelite communications, laser comunications, electronic war pod, OSF NG, Meteor, ASMP-A, rockets (even guided ones), AASM 125kg and 1000kg. Even satelite launcher in going ahead more than most believe (well... anti-satelite launcher if you ask me)
The more we do, the more some barks, always the same. No surprise here, that's the indication of who are the real desperate.
Wake up: virtual bubbles are crunching, Eurofighter will follow like the rest.

(Hello to jako the clown and rob "jalousy-is-a-b!tch" BTW)

[bgnewf]

Originally Posted by djcross

Has Dassault offered to set up an assembly line in their potential customers' countries like the the Americans did in the TUSAS facility in Ankara, Turkey which built 150 F-16Cs? By doing so, Dassault will make a profit off the assemblies sold to the non-French assembly line. By not doing so, Dassault makes 0% profit by losing the competition. Maybe it's time for Dassault to change their business model.

I hear rumours that the Brazil deal might see Embraer build knock down kits if they get the deal, but that's about it. I think only the Aussies, Swiss and Belgians built the Mirage 3 under license. No F-1's or M-2000's I believe were ever built outside France.

So yes they have a limited history of doing this and I think with both Brazil and India this might be the way to go in order to win the deals. India produces under license virtually every substantial piece of kit they own and Brazil wants to give Embraer a leg up as well.

[ocay84]

Originally Posted by c-seven

The AESA is there, it impresses, the M88-ECO is comming soon, the gun fires fast and strait, many projets are under finishing: satelite communications, laser comunications, electronic war pod, OSF NG, Meteor, ASMP-A, rockets (even guided ones), AASM 125kg and 1000kg. Even satelite launcher in going ahead more than most believe (well... anti-satelite launcher if you ask me)
The more we do, the more some barks, always the same. ...

laser comunications for Rafale? How this could be happen for very fast jet?

I heard about support/escort jammer derivative of Rafale, especially for naval Rafales, can we say EA-Rafale is coming?

[c-seven]

Originally Posted by ocay84

laser comunications for Rafale? How this could be happen for very fast jet?

I heard about support/escort jammer derivative of Rafale, especially for naval Rafales, can we say EA-Rafale is coming?

http://www.defense.gouv.fr/dga/votre...miere_mondiale

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2c...portee-lo_news

The 2nd one is a demo of a laser link between a Mystere 20 and a satellite.
Driven by the DGA (so military resherch)

I don't say it's for tomorow though.

For the EA it's a very discrete program based on the Carbon demonstrator. 15 are supposed to be ordered in the current LPM but no news (Someone has probably the Carbon pod link somewhere)

For the IA, ask for a 15 days delay

[GlobalPress]

Originally Posted by Jackonicko

Les essais en vol et au sol de l'appareil français Rafale ont commencé le 13 octobre 2008 et ont compté 39 vols, représentant approximativement 60 heures de vol. Le nombre de vols plus élevé qu'avec le Gripen et l'Eurofighter a servi aux tests élargis d'un deuxième type de radar. Le Rafale a été suivi de l'Eurofighter, troisième et dernier candidat.

Explained! Nine extra flights needed because they were flying both RBE-2 and RBE-2 AESA jets. That's good news for Rafale - they won't be judging he aircraft according to the PESA radar.

"Typhoon was a given the SAME quota of flying hours for the SAME flight-test program than Gripen and Rafale, it only missed a few hours of availability due to lack of reliability." No evidence for such a charge. Quel surprise. What a biased little twit.

"The flights undertaken during the evaluation are part of the existing flight quotas and did not lead to more flights on the airbases in question."

EG the evaluation flights (for all types) did not lead to more flights (in total) at these air bases (overall, not by Rafale), because Swiss air force activities were reduced to compensate. It doesn't mean that Rafale didn't fly extra flights. Quel surprise. What a brainless little twit.

"Jackotwisto; keep your family and durt matters for yoursel please as well as insultsing people you keep taking others for your usual ineducated fanboys, i bet i could be your dad as for a matter of education we all know what you are worth and it aint much when it come to the subject of aeorspace." Quel surprise. What a rude and ignorant little twit.

Durt? Insultsing? Ineducated? Aint? Aeorspace? I know that English isn't your first language, but for goodness' sake..... especially when you are calling other people 'uneducated'.

Si vous ne pouvez pas orthographier des mots comme l'espace, saleté, insulter, inculte, et ne savent pas où placer une apostrophe dans le mot ain't, puis il est assez facile à vérifier.

You could be my Dad? Only if you're more than 60, and only if my mum (RIP) had made a habit of sleeping with rude, brainless, little twits.

As for education.... If you really must drag this up, you're an ex AdlA spanner-monkey. I'm a professional aerospace journalist, with University degrees, and I am an RAF trained pilot.

could you finish your flame war in pm pls?

its tiring to cope with you and rob about childish and englanders views!