South Korean KFX Stealth fighter is on the way to development

[zizonkorea]

I guess some of you may remember about the Korean stealth fighter project. (KF-X, which is 12,000,000,000 dollar project to develop stealth fighter by 2017 and begin to produce by 2022.) Now this project comes out to surface.

KAI (Korea Aerospace Industries) is trying to push NSC (National Security Council) to replace KFX to F-50 (which is fighter-version of T/A-50) but ROKAF will indefatigable to continue KFX project. This is really interesting story to discuss about.

There was news (Sep, 2005) from Korean media that ADD is in the progress to design model and working on concepts and shapes. These two (101, 201) models only announced to media.

And here is the picture and video clips from ADD(Agency for Defense Development, which is South Korean military research institute) website.

These are video clips of wind-tunnel test and a picture that have published on ADD webpage. There I have found two model of KFX and these are named 101 and 201. KFX-101 model looks like an F-22 mixed with F-35. And KFX-201 looks like a stealth version Rafale, which has canard and delta wing.






http://www.add.re.kr/lab/movie/%BE%C...7%B3%B5%BF.wmv
KFX-101

http://www.add.re.kr/lab/movie/KFX201.wmv
KFX-201




Japanese are on progress of developing ATD-X (might be the Japanese X-plane project of F-3 stealth fighter), and there is "well known" rumor about Chinese J-XX (or J-14) project. And here comes KFX, and it's going to be interesting competition to watch.

[Berlusconi]

I seen the 201 model being pretty common.
so how much American input will we find in this fighter?

[zizonkorea]

in F-15K Offset order options, South Korea purchased 69 of aviational technology (which is about 1.548 billions dollar). And these tech will be really to take big parts of KFX project .

Here I'm giving to you some example of F-15K offset order about avionic design part.




Flight control
Fly-By-Wire design
Joint Servo Actuator design
Steer-By-Wire design

Electronic/warfare control
JHMCS design
Operating computer design
Data link design
Equipment integration and control
NVIS design

Equipment
Aircraft - Equipment linking system design

Equipment Design
Air-to-Air missile design

Structure Design
'Smart Structure' design
Supersonic design
Single-piece complex body design

Shape/Structure design
Newest Delta-Canard design and 2 other tech.

Engine
Electronic engine-control system design

And other other technologies that it's include RAM paint design.




As Korean's view, U.S doesn't really putted any kinds of effort on this project, no, I will say they should not puts any help on this project. Boeing withdrawed with this stealth fighter development right after this project launched. And now ROKAF even worries about radar and engine for KFX.

Few months ago Lockhead-Martin displayed F-35A mock-up in Seoul Airshow and they were trying to 'convince' ROKAF that they can deliever F-35A by 2014. Well, actually South Korean government discussed about this issue. I don't know what they have been decided about this stealth fighter dealing.

U.S will not going to look one of his market will disappears/smaller. There is "possibility" that they can puts WTO rules on Weapon trade market

But one thing I'm so sure South Korean government reduced the budget to order additional 40~60 F-15K to 20, because they wanted to watch until 2011 to see this domestic situation about stealth fighter. Actually, they want to get F-22/35. (Especially, ROKAF is going to watch F-22 dealing on Japan)

In my case, I will define these movement as 'interruption'. I think there are lots of possibilities that ROKAF will be step on the same way what Japanses did on FS-X project. I hope this is not going to be one like that. And I really hope to see 'beautiful' (not a ugly monster) darling soon

[Nick_76]

Unable to understand you here

Are you saying South Korea purchased the above technologies from the US?

Or are these offsets given to South Korean companies for the F-15 K order- like Hyundai can work on projects for "fly by wire" design for Boeing ?

Is it 1 or is it 2?

[bring_it_on]

Boeing had also committed to working on any new fighter that the SK might plan as part of the F-15K deal!!

[XcOdEz9X]

I'm skeptical whether Korea can pull it off. It is difficult to start building a stealth fighter without the accumulated experience of building fighter jets and engines. They should probably start from the basics and aim for something more achievable.

Do they know how to make their own powerful turbofan engine? Own fighter? how about experience producing fighters? About indigenous radars, missiles?

Russia can pull it off with more funding, they have lots of experience and expertise. China can probably do it since they have demonstrated the ability to make their own turbofan engine, SD-10 missile(The Chinese AMRAAM), indigenous radar, fly by wire, chinese cruise missiles, weapons, etc....not to mention the Chinese domestic J-10 fighter.

what Japanese ATD-X stealth fighter? HUH? how much progress?

[zizonkorea]

Originally Posted by XcOdEz9X

I'm skeptical whether Korea can pull it off. It is difficult to start building a stealth fighter without the accumulated experience of building fighter jets and engines. They should probably start from the basics and aim for something more achievable.

Do they know how to make their own powerful turbofan engine? Own fighter? how about experience producing fighters? About indigenous radars, missiles?

Russia can pull it off with more funding, they have lots of experience and expertise. China can probably do it since they have demonstrated the ability to make their own turbofan engine, SD-10 missile(The Chinese AMRAAM), indigenous radar, fly by wire, chinese cruise missiles, weapons, etc....not to mention the Chinese domestic J-10 fighter.

what Japanese ATD-X stealth fighter? HUH? how much progress?

As a assemble part, South Korea has producing T/A-50, and also licensed F-16 Block 52 and F-5 before. I agreed with your opinion this fighter is not going to be shows any better than F-22/35. As ROKAF plan, this fighter would be air-support fighter, not the AIR-SUPERIOR one as F-22.

As a missile part, Air-to-Air missile development is on the progress with russian technology.

Engine and Radar system will be import.

Japanese ATD-X is the only project to find out what they have ability to design stealth structure or not. This is not a specified project as KFX.

[zizonkorea]

Originally Posted by Nick_76

Unable to understand you here

Are you saying South Korea purchased the above technologies from the US?

Or are these offsets given to South Korean companies for the F-15 K order- like Hyundai can work on projects for "fly by wire" design for Boeing ?

Is it 1 or is it 2?

Some technologies already purchased from Boeing and it is being on instruct. And some tech will researches by ADD.

[zizonkorea]

Originally Posted by bring_it_on

Boeing had also committed to working on any new fighter that the SK might plan as part of the F-15K deal!!

These list are only deal with F-15K offset option which ROK wanted to get for KFX project and Boeing has simply deals with technology, but also not agreed with KFX project.

[Ramachandran]

Definitely a very good idea from the Korean point of view. With the Liberation Army dictatorship next door gaining in military and economic might, one wonders what the future holds as I have elucidated in the currently last post of the "Russian Air Force in Deep Crisis thread." It pays to be ready for any eventuality. My best wishes towards early completion of the project.

Regards

[GoldenDragon]

All nations plan for possible threats. Korea is a potent nation in a potent neighborhood with great powers on either side. The Korean stealth aircraft is aimed as much against Japan as China.

Unlike Korea, China has only to plan for the east side. China's western border is basically devoid of major airbases and mainforce land units because of the current (and historic) lack of serious threat from India.

Korea's aircraft industry will push China's and Japan's obviously. Over time, it's a good thing for Asians to compete. Just as China, Japan and Korea does in every field of economics, geo-politics and sports.

[Curahee80]

ROKAF may have to look to acquiring more additional batch of F-15Ks or more powerful F-22/35s if only US could make an approach to willingly offer the sell of second-hand ones sometimes in the near future.

BTW, What the fxcx do all these "stealth fighter" plan have to do with improving the capability of defending ROK's airspace?

Think it hard. Supposing that they'd become entered into the hostilities with more powerful foes either PRC or Japan in the near future.

Given the very narrow geographic feature of Nothern-East Asia surrounding ROK.

They'll have to make a bogey contact while being well within the visual range. and then, become entangled in a bloody mess going round and round with enemy in a tight turning engagement trying to get on the enemy's six while visually identifying the trace of hostile aircraft. However, Many koreans say that AWACS taking up the mission of covering enemy activities will surely notice them just in time.

(While reading through the voices in an angry tone placing heavy importance to the strategic value of AWACS in ROKAF service in the near future,)

I came to the thinking that "They'll have to be able to quit thinking foolish"
Realizing that They're not the israelis up high over the sky of the Valley of Bekka delivering a crushing defeat to the Syrians in a bloody encounter with the help of AWACS's vector calls.)

To the contrary, their AWACS can be easily shot down when considering the geographic feature resulting in a highly likely conclusion that they have nowhere to hide to continuously warn all the ROKAF fighters hastily ordered into the sky of hostile approaches.

Futhermore, The brilliantly accepted idea of reducing the detectability of aircraft may become virtually useless in the future with the remarkable progress of aerospace technology.

In conclusion, Even though ROK's state plan of developing their own design of stealth fighter's become crystalized in the end.

I have a strong feeling that there's no need to go so far as to diversify the type of top-of-the-line Fighter assets as long as they're well sewn up to go for some used F-22s and don't believe that They may be able to have them fully activated in large numbers.

Hmm.. I can barely read the between the lines that MOD of ROK appears to be far more interested in creating more jobs for the ever thriving Military aerospace industry under the plausible cause of enhancing and improving part of current ROK defence-relating industry capability.

As far as there's dearly paid taxes out of ordinary korean's pocket concerned.

Could this project of what it called 'Stealth Fighter" be viewed as part of strenuous efforts bringing about a mutual benefit between themselves

In reality, I'm clearly aware of the fact that how some of eldery high-positioned researchers in the defence industry are turned out to be morally corrupted as if relatively recent ROK newspaper reports saying that some of them implicated in various cases of tech-scam have proved it right when they're caught selling off results of long-running research works to their foreign competitors.

[Hell King]

Originally Posted by Ramachandran

Definitely a very good idea from the Korean point of view. With the Liberation Army dictatorship next door gaining in military and economic might, one wonders what the future holds as I have elucidated in the currently last post of the "Russian Air Force in Deep Crisis thread." It pays to be ready for any eventuality. My best wishes towards early completion of the project.

Regards

Sorry to tell you this, but this is more about Japan. Japan is making more unilateral moves to claim and occupy disputed territories it has with China and the two Koreas. China, on the other hand, is signing joint ventures with other countries on islands that are disputed. You don't hear a peep from China about South Korea's high-tech military buildup in recent years. Afterall the two have a mutual economic relationship.

I predict that with all the paranoid attention over China you guys have, South Korea will go unnoticed and become a more dynamic prosperous nation than Japan has ever been which will spur ultra-nationalism in Japan and cause a huge headache for the US. Now a strong South Korea against Japan is a good thing.

[KJlost]

Make bogey contact within visual range? Bloody mess of turning fights? Have you really looked at the map of South Korea and East Asian region?

[Berlusconi]

Originally Posted by Hell King

Sorry to tell you this, but this is more about Japan. Japan is making more unilateral moves to claim and occupy disputed territories it has with China and the two Koreas. China, on the other hand, is signing joint ventures with other countries on islands that are disputed. You don't hear a peep from China about South Korea's high-tech military buildup in recent years. Afterall the two have a mutual economic relationship.

I predict that with all the paranoid attention over China you guys have, South Korea will go unnoticed and become a more dynamic prosperous nation than Japan has ever been which will spur ultra-nationalism in Japan and cause a huge headache for the US. Now a strong South Korea against Japan is a good thing.

uh oh, some one brought out a nationalist

[Pbar_b1bwso]

Nationalism...why do think the Japanese are so interested in the F-22 now? I'm sure it just bugs them to no end to see the Koreans with a better fighter (F-15K) than anything they fly.

[Vortex]

Let's be serious here $12Bil is not going to get you any serious stealth aircraft indigenous development. If i were Koreans, i would question the amount of my tax dollars going toward this. These days, everybody who wants money to develop combat aircraft will claim "stealth"...imagine telling your leaders otherwise.

[Hell King]

Originally Posted by Berlusconi

uh oh, some one brought out a nationalist

That's funny! Military forums display nothing but nationalism.

[datafuser]

The ADD has been the main pusher of this ridiculous concept and a department of the ROKAF called 공군전투발전단 (Air Force Warfare Development Group?) is siding with them. Many officers of the department who fly desks, not fighters, end up working for the ADD and KAI, a company only good at simple assembly work, after leaving the service and they have an interest to create works for the ADD and KAI to secure their own future employment.

Anyway, the overall ROKAF's interest in the KFX is lukewarm at best. I wonder where the money for this KFX can be found - the ROKAF even gave up upgrading 140 F-16C/D Block 52s due to lack of funds. Our F-16s will most probably slowly become obsolescent without receiving any significant upgrade.

Cheers,
Sunho

[Berlusconi]

Originally Posted by datafuser

The ADD has been the main pusher of this ridiculous concept and a department of the ROKAF called 공군전투발전단 (Air Force Warfare Development Group?) is siding with them. Many officers of the department who fly desks, not fighters, end up working for the ADD and KAI, a company only good at simple assembly work, after leaving the service and they have an interest to create works for the ADD and KAI to secure their own future employment.

Anyway, the overall ROKAF's interest in the KFX is lukewarm at best. I wonder where the money for this KFX can be found - the ROKAF even gave up upgrading 140 F-16C/D Block 52s due to lack of funds. Our F-16s will most probably slowly become obsolescent without receiving any significant upgrade.

Cheers,
Sunho

sounds reasonable. These days when fighter programs with massive budget requirements to the point that even France will probably not go at it alone for their 5th generation project.
I think it'll be more reasonable if they focused on stealthy UCAVs instead.

[XcOdEz9X]

Originally Posted by KJlost

Make bogey contact within visual range? Bloody mess of turning fights? Have you really looked at the map of South Korea and East Asian region?

LOL KJLOST. I see your butt everywhere. China Defense Forum, AsiaFinest forum.....you're korean aren't you?

[XcOdEz9X]

Originally Posted by Vortex

Let's be serious here $12Bil is not going to get you any serious stealth aircraft indigenous development. If i were Koreans, i would question the amount of my tax dollars going toward this. These days, everybody who wants money to develop combat aircraft will claim "stealth"...imagine telling your leaders otherwise.

how much money did the U.S. spend on developmental costs for the F-22 Raptor and JSF?

must be around the 100-200 billion dollar mark?

[bring_it_on]

must be around the 100-200 billion dollar mark?

no not even close!! the raptor is a 70 billion dollar program which icludes R and D aswell as procurment of 183 raptors. the JSF's development is in the 30-40 billion mark.

[sferrin]

Originally Posted by bring_it_on

no not even close!! the raptor is a 70 billion dollar program which icludes R and D aswell as procurment of 183 raptors. the JSF's development is in the 30-40 billion mark.

Then you've got:

B-2
Have Blue
Tacit Blue
Dark Star
F-117
YF-23
A-12
X-45
X-47
Bird of Prey
AGM-129
TSSAM
JASSM
. . . .. The US has put a LOT of $$$ into stealth R&D over the years.

[Vortex]

Originally Posted by XcOdEz9X

LOL KJLOST. I see your butt everywhere.

Please use other mediums for this kind of personal messages...we're talking about airplanes not somebody's rear end you've been seeing...

[PLA-MKII]

Simple Maths folks $70b + $30B (0r $40B) = $100B (or 110B) thats what the gentleman said between $100B-$200B. "Not even close" is a worrying sign.

[Nick_76]

I know, KJLost better be careful there- you have some unwanted attention directed your way!!

[datafuser]

Here is a paper by an aerospace analyst about the future of the ROKAF.

http://www.rusi.org/publications/def...442C01F0031E3/

"The Korean Air Force: Strategy for the 21st Century
By Myeong Chin Cho
Mar 2006

Myeong Chin Cho is Director of East Asian Division in ADIA Consultancy GmbH, Berlin, Germany and is the author of Balance of Air Power in East Asia, Restructuring of Korea’s Defence Aerospace Industry, and EU’s Enlargement and Its Impact on Defence Industries."



He argues the ROKAF has no concrete concept for the KFX and we are not yet capable of developing a fourth-generation aircraft due to limited finance, an insufficient level of required technology and inexperience. The ROK Army has its own big money project called KHP, which may compete for same funds as the KFX and KAI is not even capable of coming up with its own upgrade package for our F-16 fleet despite having produced 140 of them. This is a marked contrast with Singapore Technologies Aerospace, which is offering Falcon ONE upgrade package built around a mission computer developed in-house.

Instead, he proposes we should try to do what China (PL-12 on Su-27/30), Japan (AAM-4 on F-15J), Israel (Python 4/5 and Popeye on F-15 and F-16) and South Africa (A-Darter, R-Darter and Raptor on Cheetah) have done - produce our own weapons and integrate them to our fighters.

Cheers,
Sunho

[Matej]

Here are some pictures of model of KFX-201 configuration. Interesting project...

[ChiCumRen]

if America have hard time on time and money when producing 5th generation fighter, then how can Korea expect to go at this alone?
A more realistic idea is for S.Korea to reconsider its alinement with China and jointly develop a 5th generation aircraft together. Maybe name it Gaoguoli in honor of the historical kingdom in both Chinese and Korean history, similar to how the K8 is Karakorum in both China and Pakistan.