Mig-21 vs Mirage III (Yom Kippur War)

[Lonevolk]

Here are some interesting pictures from the Yom Kippur war, from the gun camera of an Egyptian Mig-21 shooting down a Mirage III (pics taken from another forum, Russian source)

[Lonevolk]

and now something from the Israeli side:

the last moments of an egyptian Mig-21 in the Suez Canal area (pics taken from another forum, Russian source)

[HauntedSea]

Originally Posted by Lonevolk

and now something from the Israeli side:

the last moments of an egyptian Mig-21 in the Suez Canal area (pics taken from another forum, Russian source)

The first picture on the left is standing on its head, it should be horizontal, not vertical. The aircraft is flying to the left and the blot blow the aircraft is the pilot who had just bailed out.

[franc]

Well, these pics couldn't explain any point. Who can give more details about Mig-21 and Mirage III such as climb rate/ turn rate/ and angle rate of orbit,plus acceleration parameter?

[Canpark]

Cool pictures!

[Schorsch]

I read that the Mirage III was considered inferior to the MiG-21 in that conflict. It would help if somebody knows the versions of the particular aircraft. Turn-rate and climb speed will be of secondary importance, more interesting will be Ground Guidance, the available missiles, tactical situation (offensive, defensive) and of course pilot training. We will once again learn that this conflict is too specialised to gain any conclusion about the performance.

[Sens]

Oh Godness, the old pictures from AW&ST again.
The gun-camera-sights were all printed wrong-sided! Text and locations could be seen as look-a-likes to stay friendly! Those Russian websites have no problems to mix facts, when they learned from those events after a delay of over two decades really.

Exchange ratio between Nesher/Mirage and MiG-21 was ~4:~120 in YKW.

A total of 11 Nesher/Mirage were lost to all causes in YKW.

Most Israeli kills were achieved by Shafrir-2 and AIM-9P.

The Israeli examples flew without radar, except ranging device.

[Lonevolk]

Settle down "Sens". The pictures weren't posted as part of a Russian plot to turn you into a fan of Russian planes

I didn't realise that they have already been posted over here.

As far as the Mig-21 and Mirage III goes, they were at the time comparable aircraft. But no one is denying the skill and capabilities of the Israeli Airforce.

Most Israeli aircraft losses (pretty substantial) were from SAM's, not air-air combat, as I'm sure you already know.

------

Since we are on the topic of the Mig-21, here's a video from Soviet times:

http://rapidshare.de/files/11333814/MiG-21.zip.html

(For anyone not familiar with Rapidshare: Click on the FREE option, then enter the code after countdown to access the file.)

[Archibaald]

According to the Israeli the problem with Mirage III was it's engine.Lack of power... In fact the main problem of the Mirages until the 2000 was : the engine. In fact, from the Mystere II of 1951 (some kind of french F-86...) to the Mirage F1 still in service today, the engine is the same! It's the SNECMA atar...
it's max power was 7200 kg of thrust which is not very much... From 1948 to 1973 Dassault had to use this engine!!
The Mig was much more agil (the delta wing without canards or CDVE of the III was draggy at low speed)
But thanks to Mounir Radfa (who gave a Mig-21 to the Israeli in august 1966) Israeli pilots knew these weaknesses...

[Fonk]

My ex-flight instructor was Head of the CEV (Flight test Center) of Bretigny back in 1975. He flew the Mig-21 during one of the Normandie-Niemen Squadron exchange in 1973 at Reims. His commentary were rather elogious on the Mig. Rabit-like acceleartion; quiet more maneouvrable than a Mirage III at low speeds. His only critisism was about the 23 mm which ballistic was inferior to the 30 DEFFA mm and the gunsight which was limited to less than 4 Gs.... The high kill ratio obtained by the Isrealis was partly due to a far better training lecvel and tactics. The Mirage III still records in the history book as the world first \M2.0 Mig Killer. Good topic i hope i shaded some light on it.

[Sens]

The first ATAR 101A axial engine flew in 1949. The serial versions engined the S.O. 4050 Vautour and Dassault 'Super Mystere' B2 at first. The SM B2 was similar to the F-100.
The Mystere variants from I>IV were engined with French versions of the RR Nene/Tay radial engine.

The nominal bench-power is misleading, when it comes to a Tj. Where the practical power rises with speed and height.
But I agree, that the ATAR 9 for example was not the "highlight" of the Mirage III.
But the MiG-21s with the early R-11Fs/37F had their shortcomings too.
The MiG-21s had a better T:W ratio, which gave those an edge in climb or accelleration, when the Mirage III had the higher kinetic energy. The MiG-21 could work-up higher sustained turning-rates, when the Mirage III had the better instanious ones. The pilot, who reacted first and is well aware of his capabilities and shortcomings of the other-one, could use this to his advantage.

[Sens]

Originally Posted by Fonk

My ex-flight instructor was Head of the CEV (Flight test Center) of Bretigny back in 1975. He flew the Mig-21 during one of the Normandie-Niemen Squadron exchange in 1973 at Reims. His commentary were rather elogious on the Mig. Rabit-like acceleartion; quiet more maneouvrable than a Mirage III at low speeds. His only critisism was about the 23 mm which ballistic was inferior to the 30 DEFFA mm and the gunsight which was limited to less than 4 Gs.... The high kill ratio obtained by the Isrealis was partly due to a far better training lecvel and tactics. The Mirage III still records in the history book as the world first \M2.0 Mig Killer. Good topic i hope i shaded some light on it.

Had those R-25 engines?

[PhantomII]

AIM-9P

I think you're thinking of either the AIM-9B, AIM-9D, or the AIM-9E. The AIM-9P didn't appear until later on. In fact, I think it's the only Sidewinder variant that's not all-aspect that's still in service.

[Sens]

Originally Posted by PhantomII

AIM-9P

I think you're thinking of either the AIM-9B, AIM-9D, or the AIM-9E. The AIM-9P didn't appear until later on. In fact, I think it's the only Sidewinder variant that's not all-aspect that's still in service.

Sorry my mistake, you are right, it was the AIM-9D during YKW. Shlomo Aloni quoted it correct. Some AIM-9B were used 1969-70 with the Mirage, before those the Shafrir and R-13 were fielded without noticable results. In 1970 some AIM-9E were used too till the Attrition War ended that year.
On 16/10/73 a single kill was recorded by Shahak 51 (Shahak is the Israeli name for the Mirage IIIC and Nesher is the Israeli name for the Mirage 5) of 101. sqdn with an AIM-9G against a SAF Su-7.

[Fonk]

@Sens

"Had those R-25 engines?"

I don't know but a quick researche on the type in use (Mongol two seaters) at the time would tell you....

[Archibaald]

There was a long , long series of article in "le fana de l'aviation" between september 1998 and 1999 about the Mirage III in Israeli service...
I remember reading Giora Epstein, ace of the aces who said that during the kippur War he flew a twin seater Mirage IIICJ ( n°86) , he did not jettison his fuel tanks... and despite that he had two victories in the same mission!!

[Archibaald]

Do you think that the Mig was more manoeverable that the Mirage III because of his delta wing + TAIL (the Mirage III was a pure delta) ?

[Fonk]

Depends what you consider as a manoeuvrability factor. Pure deltas like the Mirage III can have a high instantaneous turn rate but tend to drag more at high AoA expecially when highly swept at 53*.

With a higher Thrust to Weight ratio the Mig would sustain a higher G-load while loosing less energy but not necessarly because it wasn't a pure delta.

Generally it goes with Wing load vs thrust Lift vs weight.

Both insstantaneous and sustained turn rates depends on these.

I am actually unsure of their respective wing loads but i would say the Mirage might well have had a higher one and a higher drag ratio for the same amount of Gs..

[Sens]

Originally Posted by Fonk

@Sens

"Had those R-25 engines?"

I don't know but a quick researche on the type in use (Mongol two seaters) at the time would tell you....

When it was a "passenger flight", it may have been the R-11 in the MiG-21UM.