ICMS MK3 problem of HAF Mirage 2000-5 MK2

[pilot16]

The Greek Mirage 2000-5s MK2 will be received without self protection system due to unsolved problems. Thales will try to fix the problem until April of 2006. Otherwise will pay a penalty to Greece . The inability of French side to solve the problem puts in risk the candidacy of Rafale for the HAFs 4th generation aircraft...

[glitter]

Why would it threaten the Rafale which hasn't ICMS mk3 ?

[Srbin]

Because it would sort of screw up French reputation in Greece if they don't fix this problem. I guess this is what might happen. But, cmon not like the Russians or Americans have better customer support, so anyways....

[Funkycartel_1]

It seems that smth is wrong with those guys both at Dassault and HAF. If I m not mistaken there were many problems with the initial order of M2000 back in eighties. HAF refused to accept them due to radar problems. Now, years later, similar problems apear that have to do with the ESM.

On the other hand I don't remember any other customer of M2000 either in the past or now to complain for these systems(RDI, ICMS). Some alternatives that one might think:
1) French hate Greeks more than any other customer so they give them faulty equipment.
2) Greeks do really good job at the acceptance tests while countries like India, Egypt, UAE don't test what they buy.
3) Greeks want everything they buy to be like F-16, so every difference they find they call it "problem"
4) The problems that are mention are not the real ones but there might be others that have to do with money, politics etc.

There sould be an explanation. although none of the above seems reasonable I think there sould be an explanation. I don't think it was a coincidence to happen twice with the M2000.

[Stormeagle]

Originally Posted by Funkycartel_1

It seems that smth is wrong with those guys both at Dassault and HAF. If I m not mistaken there were many problems with the initial order of M2000 back in eighties. HAF refused to accept them due to radar problems. Now, years later, similar problems apear that have to do with the ESM.

On the other hand I don't remember any other customer of M2000 either in the past or now to complain for these systems(RDI, ICMS). Some alternatives that one might think:
1) French hate Greeks more than any other customer so they give them faulty equipment.
2) Greeks do really good job at the acceptance tests while countries like India, Egypt, UAE don't test what they buy.
3) Greeks want everything they buy to be like F-16, so every difference they find they call it "problem"
4) The problems that are mention are not the real ones but there might be others that have to do with money, politics etc.

There sould be an explanation. although none of the above seems reasonable I think there sould be an explanation. I don't think it was a coincidence to happen twice with the M2000.

The issue is that HAF is counting on the M2000 for the interception role of Western (F16C) fighters. This happens on a daily basis with over 20 Turkish violations of Athens FIR and /or violation of National Airspace. Which means that the fighters should be at their prime with all systems working as ordered and as demonstrated when the order was given. There is no space for "bypasses." Now in addition to this, there is a witch-hunt going on in the HAF procurements where the new goverment is trying to "prove" the old government a thief of public resources. So all contracts go through the microscope and no officer is willing to put his signature on an acceptance document which might be problematic in the future. And to put the icing on the cake: the new goverment and its favorit officers are very pro-american so I wsouldn't be surprised if all these "major problems" are based on the will to prove the Europeans untrustworthy. I mean, they didn't accept parts for the TOR missiles for over a year (from the customs), just so that they would come up and say that the system is untrustworthy because it has low availability......go figure.

[flex297]

Originally Posted by Funkycartel_1

It seems that smth is wrong with those guys both at Dassault and HAF. If I m not mistaken there were many problems with the initial order of M2000 back in eighties. HAF refused to accept them due to radar problems. Now, years later, similar problems apear that have to do with the ESM.

2) Greeks do really good job at the acceptance tests while countries like India, Egypt, UAE don't test what they buy.

Well, if you dig a bit deeper you might find out that UAEAF was exactly as unhappy with RDM performance as HAF was. They also threatened with returning the Mirages back.

[glitter]

Originally Posted by flex297

Well, if you dig a bit deeper you might find out that UAEAF was exactly as unhappy with RDM performance as HAF was. They also threatened with returning the Mirages back.

RDM ? More like an esthetic feature than a radar

[flex297]

Originally Posted by glitter

RDM ? More like an esthetic feature than a radar

It depends... Peruvians, for instance, were very happy with the radar performance of their M2000Ps, so happy, that they were using their Mirages as some small-scale AWACS to guide other fighters during the Cenepa War. But I guess Greeks and Arabs were used to higher standards... Especially Greeks had their F1CGs for comparison and have probably learned that the performance margin of the RDM over Cyrano IVs wasn't nothing exceptional..

[Kovy]

1) French hate Greeks more than any other customer so they give them faulty equipment.
2) Greeks do really good job at the acceptance tests while countries like India, Egypt, UAE don't test what they buy.
3) Greeks want everything they buy to be like F-16, so every difference they find they call it "problem"
4) The problems that are mention are not the real ones but there might be others that have to do with money, politics etc.

I think it is #2
One of the primary reason for the greeks to choose the 2000-5mk2 was probably the ICMS mk3 which is said to be very very powerfull with some kind of elint features.
The price for this advanced ECM suite was certainly very high therefore it is logical that the greek are expecting something perfect from Dassault and Thales.

[Funkycartel_1]

I suppose that when a country wants to buy an aircraft from Dassault, the company directs it to Arme de l' Air. So the potential customer actually performs the tests with French operational aircrafts. I am pretty sure that both versions of M2000, the -C and the -5 were excelllent during tests with AdlA aircrafts.

The disapointment should have come when they see their own aircrafts. So the reasonable explanation is that the products that the French companies (notice the plural) deliver are less capable than those that stay within the borders of France.

I think this is obvious (actually I don't think, I know, it happen to have personal experiance when working in manufacturing a French defence system for a co-production program - there were notices on the parts lists for different versions of drawings).

So, my conclusion is that anyone who believes that buying RAFALE would have a top class fighter like the one he sees at French carriers should think of it twice.

[Kovy]

Originally Posted by Funkycartel_1

I suppose that when a country wants to buy an aircraft from Dassault, the company directs it to Arme de l' Air. So the potential customer actually performs the tests with French operational aircrafts. I am pretty sure that both versions of M2000, the -C and the -5 were excelllent during tests with AdlA aircrafts.

The disapointment should have come when they see their own aircrafts. So the reasonable explanation is that the products that the French companies (notice the plural) deliver are less capable than those that stay within the borders of France.

I think this is obvious (actually I don't think, I know, it happen to have personal experiance when working in manufacturing a French defence system for a co-production program - there were notices on the parts lists for different versions of drawings).

Your post is funy because in France, everybody complain that our aircrafts are outdated (mirage 2000 C/D) compared to the aircrafts we are exporting (mirage 2000-9/-5mk2)

So, my conclusion is that anyone who believes that buying RAFALE would have a top class fighter like the one he sees at French carriers should think of it twice.

lol ! The ICMS mk3 is the best ECM suite ever created for the mirage 2000 !
French mirage 2000-5F and 2000C ECM suite is based on the much older "sabre" jamer. Even the mirage 2000 D which have the best ECM suite (until the arrival of the rafale spectra off course) in the armée de l'air only have the ICMS mk1 suite.

No, the problem is that Greece mirage 2000-5mk2 are the first to get the ICMS mk3. Thales will need a few time to make it works smoothly as it is the most complex and powerfull ECM suite ever created for the mirage 2000.

[Harry]

Originally Posted by glitter

RDM ? More like an esthetic feature than a radar

Why ?

[Funkycartel_1]

Your post is funy because in France, everybody complain that our aircrafts are outdated (mirage 2000 C/D) compared to the aircrafts we are exporting (mirage 2000-9/-5mk2)

If you ask USAF staff they ll tell you the same thing, that what their industries export are better than what they get. However, I repeat it happen for me to have access to details that stay within the industries. Unfortunately, I have to respect both the French company and the one I used to work for so I can not give further details. You may say that I cheat but I ll accept it instead of saying something more.

Originally Posted by Kovy

lol ! The ICMS mk3 is the best ECM suite ever created for the mirage 2000 !
French mirage 2000-5F and 2000C ECM suite is based on the much older "sabre" jamer. Even the mirage 2000 D which have the best ECM suite (until the arrival of the rafale spectra off course) in the armée de l'air only have the ICMS mk1 suite.

No, the problem is that Greece mirage 2000-5mk2 are the first to get the ICMS mk3. Thales will need a few time to make it works smoothly as it is the most complex and powerfull ECM suite ever created for the mirage 2000.

Anyway, I hope the reason of the delay to be the one that you mention because the reputation of French companies in industrial level is not the best, at least for me who have co-operated with people from many well known companies around the world.

[Arthur]

Originally Posted by Harry

Why ?

Some people don't like the original black nose, i think

[Funkycartel_1]

Originally Posted by Funkycartel_1

I think this is obvious (actually I don't think, I know, it happen to have personal experiance when working in manufacturing a French defence system for a co-production program - there were notices on the parts lists for different versions of drawings).

The discussionis is interesting, we hardly ever deal with such topics. So I ll just tell you a little story.

It is very funny to see what is written in defence magazines when a country buys a new weapon. Let's call it "CLOCK", and suppose that the current model is -3A. During the annaouncements you hear from both sides (company and country) that the purchase is actually for a BRAND NEW model call it "CLOCK-3A1+ mk2". Wooooow.... this is what they all say. Impressing isn't it? But when it comes to real drawings you find from the lists that this super extra fantastic product is actually a mix of features from models -1, -2A, -2B, 3 and 3A.

Let's also have another imaginery example from a missile called "DISASTER-3000". The technical data, brochures, bla bla bla... say that the max range is 60 miles. So far so good. However, the officers that operate this missile realise sooner or later when they do some calculations that this missile should have a range of more than 80 miles.

So what they do? Now this is the place for some of the most exciting jobs that exist on earth. Retired officers, engineers that realise after 20 or 30 years hard work it's better to do smth for themselves rather than for their companies or even university staff that cannot keep their promises that they ll keep the research confidential offer their services .

Is it illegal? I don't know. What I know is that it does exist. Countries that have a middle technology level and the will to improve their weapons use their services occasionally.

[glitter]

Originally Posted by Funkycartel_1

The disapointment should have come when they see their own aircrafts. So the reasonable explanation is that the products that the French companies (notice the plural) deliver are less capable than those that stay within the borders of France.

It's strange that all french officers I have met until now must disagree with you.

TAiwan Mirage 2000 -5 versus undergrade french -5
Basic Leclerc vs UAE Leclerc with more "gimmick"

I won't insult you and speak of the LAfayette class.

[glitter]

Originally Posted by Harry

Why ?

that was the french doppler radar and suffured lots of troubles at the beginning of his career (see what happened in Greece) and the RDI and the RDY has been pretty good technical sucess.

[Indian1973]

the RDM seems to have many bugfix 'grades'. India has RDM4 and RDM7(the 10 'new' mirages)

[Funkycartel_1]

Originally Posted by glitter

It's strange that all french officers I have met until now must disagree with you.

TAiwan Mirage 2000 -5 versus undergrade french -5
Basic Leclerc vs UAE Leclerc with more "gimmick"

I won't insult you and speak of the LAfayette class.

No problem, you don't insult me. It seems that we both have our experiances, that might differ a bit.

[fantasma_337]

The ICMS suite of the Greek Mirages was develloped closely with the French who adopted most of the modifications the PA requested, there is no reason to believe that this won't happen again... Its just a legal move for political reasons...

[gui]

Does anybody know how many 2000-5 have already been delivered to the Greeks?

[pilot16]

Originally Posted by gui

Does anybody know how many 2000-5 have already been delivered to the Greeks?

All 15 new 2000-5s Mk2 are ready as well as the 5 of total 10 upgraded 2000-5s EGM/BGM but Greece do not accept them. Hopefully the delivery will start on September. The aircrafts will be delivered without self protection system. See the first thread..