A few Junkers Ju 290 question's.

[STORMBIRD262]

Just been reading one of my old book's .

Doe's anyone have much info on the three A-5's that made round trip's to Manchuria in 1944 .

Second Ju-290 picture,

Was this one flown back to the State's after the War, or am I mistaken .

If so did it survive, even in bit's .

And the A-8 had ten MG 151, and one (or three) MG 131, Now that a fare bit of punch .

Cheer's all , Thank's all , Tally Ho! Ho! Phil .

[Flood]

Your first picture appears to be of Ju 290 V6 (A5), w.nr J900170 (witness the '70' behind the cockpit), which became 9V+DH and was probably destroyed in an air raid at Rechlin in April 1945. Information from http://www.geocities.com/hjunkers/ju_ju90_p3.htm
Your second picture is featured on http://1000aircraftphotos.com/APS/2005.htm

Junkers 290 A-4(V7) Werknummer 290110165 just prior to its transatlantic flight to the USA. It left Paris-Orly on July 28th 1945 and arrived at Wright Patterson AFB via the Azores on the 31st. The untypical teardrop fairing behind the cockpit housed the antenna for a US radio compass which was fitted for this flight. The aircraft was scrapped after testing.

There are a few more shots of it on this page:-http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=537375, where it is also alleged that the Manchurian flight Ju 290s were w.nr 10182, 10183, 10184.

Flood

[jerry brewer]

Hi
'alles kaput' was at wright field 25-09-46 for overhaul , but was salvaged / scrapped 12-12-46 .
apparently on the 28-07-45 flight it took off from the azores after trumans C-54, and arrived at bermuda an hour ahead of the presidents a/c.
info from war prizes an excellent book well worth the dosh.
There has been a heck of a lot of debate on other boards, that the manchurian flights never actually happened.
cheers
Jerry

[Flood]

A colour shot of Alles Kaputt at Freeman Field can be found here.

Flood

[STORMBIRD262]

Thank's guy's ,
That a great colour shot Flood, thank's for pointing me to it mate.
Interest info guy's

It's alway's a great pitty to think about just how many aircraft have been built over the last 100 year, just to end up in landfill or made in to pot's and pan's .

That's interesting Jerry, So the flight's mave have never taken place at all,
I wonder what propaganda value they might have got from making it up .

Thank's again all , Cheer's all , Tally Ho! Ho! Phil .

anyone else have any coment's or info to add

[Smith]

That's a great link Flood - many thanks. D

[Simon_G]

Doe's anyone have much info on the three A-5's that made round trip's to Manchuria in 1944 .

Just a bit... Junkers historian Horst Zoller told me in 2004 that a German newspaper article in the 1950s identified that the three aircraft were at some point flown as Deutsch Luft Hansa aircraft after the Japanese became nervous of upsetting the Russians.

The event which upset the Russians was when Ju-290 werke nr.J900183 in markings T9+WK was ambushed whilst making a spy drop by landing in Kazakhstan. The Germans referred to the mission as "Operation Panther"
A Russian NKVD Captain Kaydrov was responsible for the ambush.

The Luftwaffe crew were interrogated to learn about the manchurian flights and it put the fear of God into the Japanese who did not want a war with Russia.

I was responsible for the claim referred to below and whilst I made the claim in good faith quoting from details supplied to me, I now doubt if the airframes w.nr 10182, 10183, 10184 were actually the ones.

On the basis of better information I now think the airframes were werke nr.900174, 900176 and 900178

There are a few more shots of it on this page:-http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=537375, where it is also alleged that the Manchurian flight Ju 290s were w.nr 10182, 10183, 10184.

I am now inclined to believe that the three aircraft originally involved in flights from Odessa to Ningxia were:

Werke nr J900183, Ju290-A7 withdrawn as KR+LP which became T9+WK
Werke nr J900182, Ju290-A9, withdrawn as KR+LM which became T9+UK
Werke nr J900185, Ju290-A7 withdrawn as KR+LN which became T9+VK

T9 was the marking for "Zirkus Rosarius" from february 1942. Zirkus Rosarius flew a variety of captured allied aircraft through the war, but it was also the predecessor to KG200.

Oberst Theodor Rowehl who performed long range spy missions over Britain before the Battle of Britain in a DLH passenger He-111-AO, various missions over Russia in 1940 with an He-70 in Roumanian AF markings and other flights from Vichy Syria led Aufklarungsgruppe 100, which in turn became part of Zirkus Rosarius in 1942.

Three Ju-290 A7 were also offered to Japan as strategic bombers and I suspect these were the same three aircraft modified from BMW801D engines to BMW801G engines.

The Japanese backed off buying the three Ju-290 bombers and this may have something to do with the capture of one by the NKVD in Kazakhstan.

Thus three Ju-290 may have been converted to Ju-290 A7 for sale to Japan and thus may have operated early flights to manchuria from Odessa. One of these appears to have become converted as a Ju-290 A9 with BMW801H engines, but all three started as earlier production Ju-290 models.

The story however seems to be split and relate to two distinct batches of Ju-290 as missions also took place in 1944 when three aircraft were transferred to Major Gartenfeld of I/KG200 for manchurian flights. These Ju-290 A5 aircraft had extensive modifications providing increased fuel tankage to 23,800 litre.

The civilianised Ju-290 A5 airframes appear to have been:

Ju290 A-5 W.Nr.900174 stkz KR+LE operational code 9V+EH and with DLH coded as D-AITP 'Sachsen'

Ju290 A-5 W.Nr.900176 stkz KR+LG operational code 9V+GH and with DLH coded as D-AITQ 'Preussen'

Ju290 A-5 W.Nr.900178 stkz KR+LI operational code 9V+EK and with DLH coded as then to spain 74+23 DLH D-AITR 'Bayern' then becoming Spanish Air Force's 74+23

Horst Zoller's Hugo Junkers Homepage records three Ju-290 transferred to Lufthansa

These three aircraft appear to have resumed flights to Manchuria in 1944 in response to the Fuhrer decree FHQU#219/44 with I/KG200.

Also Horst Zoller alerted me that there was at least one flight to Sakhalin with a Bv222 flying boat. Assuming as I do that this was also a Bv222 in DLH disguise, then the likely airframe was Blohm und Voss Bv222 V1

Werke. Nr.000365 stkz CC+EQ KG200 operational code X4+AH and DLH civil registration D-ANTE.

Finally the second Ju-390 V2 prototype flew a mission from near breslau in Silesia to Bodo Norway. then it collected two disassembled Me 262 aircraft off loaded from U-234 following her underwater collision in the Baltic with another U-boat. Other issues of U-234's cargo were according to her radio operator Oberfunkmeister Wolfgang Hirschfeldt so urgent that they had to be flown to Japan.

Thus part of U-234's cargo was loaded on the Ju-390 V2 at Bodo and flown direct via the Pole to Tokyo. the Ju-390 was in false Sweedish Air force markings and the aircraft was painted pale blue.

Sorry Stormbird262, but I can't provide much more detail than that.

I am currently making enquiries with a Museum in China and with the Ninxia University to learn more about these flights and I shall update when I know more.

[STORMBIRD262]

thank's all for the awesome info

[DoraNineFan]

"Alles Kaput" is seen starting at 1:41 in this color film from what appears to be an open house at Wright Patterson late in the war or just afterward.

Lots of other interesting stuff in there, too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOqnk...eature=related

[Grinchen]

Simon,

You sure provide some sensational information so I'm sure you'll be happy to share your sources for what you claim as facts. Relying solely on Horst Zoeller's data is not advisable. It is a great source to start your research from but it contains nummerous incorrect facts since he has based is material on information found in publicised sources and not on original archival material. Horst has done a tremendous work and should be highly praised for it, but it is advisable to double check data if it is important be 100% sure that they are accurate.

Firstly your list with Stkz and Vbkz information connected to 0182, 0183 and 0185 is not correct. Check Ott and Kösslers data in Die Grosse Dessauer from Aviatic Verlag.

What is your source that A-9 version was equipped with BMW 801 H engines?

So far not a single document, logg book entry, name of crew member, or photo have appeared that proves that any flights were performed from Germany to Japan at anytime during the war.

Your statement that Ju 390 V2 was operated like you suggest is most likely incoorect (again, unless you provide documentary proof) since there is only one single source available suggesting that it even made one flight. But it could be a misstake and refeer to the V1.

Your statement that the Ju 390 was painted in Swedish markings is also so fantastic that it can't be accepted as a fact unless proven by a photo or a document ordering the aircraft to be painted that way. I'm sure you'll be pleased to share that. The modellers would love it!

The BV 222 flight to Sachalin never took place. The aircraft was prepared and departed for Kirkenes but the flight was never made.

You fail to produce any names of the locations that the flight should have started from or any names of crew members that "made" the missions. All this data is readily available in Kössler/Ott's book.

I'm sorry, but unless you supply documents proving what you state, at least I will not believe a single word of it. What others do is up to them. Its just sad to see another "Luftwaffe myth" being perpetuated and finding new believers.

/Best regards

[Simon_G]

Originally Posted by Grinchen

Simon,
So far not a single document, logg book entry, name of crew member, or photo have appeared that proves that any flights were performed from Germany to Japan at anytime during the war.

The book "Messerschmitt Me-264 Amerika Bomber" by Roberth Forsyth cites a German POW interrogated in April 1944 (pre Normandy invasion) who gave an account of Sonderkommando Nebel and who advised the existence of special flights to "Manchuria" by civil pilots.

As far as I have been able to discern the aircraft were transferred to Deutsch Luft Hansa and were flown by Hermann (Henry) Quenzler (employed by Paperclip at Skunk works and Boeing, died in 9th September 2002 survived by two daughters); Karl Patin; Flugkapitan Erich Warsitz (who died age of 76 years 12 July 1983 at Barbengo Switzerland) and Flugkapitan Mattias who died in 1946 testing Junkers aircraft for the Soviets.

No well you will not get to see their logbooks because these were all test pilots and any scientist or engineer recruited by Paperclip was the subject of post war Government secrecy.

DLH Flugkapitan Rudolf Myer organised these flights according to the above source.

The POW interrogated in April 1944 was subsequently corroborated by another POW in August 1944.

Photographic technician, Unteroffizer Wolf Baumgart, was interrogated by the US Ninth Air Force and his testimony was recorded by the A.P.W.I.U. Report 44/1945. In that report Baumgart is quoted claiming that a Ju-390 flew from Mont de Marsan, France, to within 12 miles of New York city. He further stated that photographs were taken of the city's skyline.

The same A.P.I.W.U report also makes reference to corroboration of Baumgart by a more senior Luftwaffe officer, who added that the Ju-390 had an in-flight endurance of 32 hours.

We have never learned whom the Luftwaffe officer was, whether he was a third source, or whether the report was indicating the RAF's POW interrogated in April 1944 ?

Your statement that Ju 390 V2 was operated like you suggest is most likely incoorect (again, unless you provide documentary proof) since there is only one single source available suggesting that it even made one flight. But it could be a misstake and refeer to the V1.

Flugkapitan Hans Pancherz after the war divulged to British newspapers an amazing flight he made in the Ju-390 to Cape Town. This by necessity would have involved air to air-refueling.

What Pancherz did admit was that he flew a Ju-390 to Cape Town. In January 1944 a Ju-290 A4 aerial tanker aircraft registered CE+YZ was also performing trials over the Atlantic with a Ju-390 from Mont de Marsan.

This was the same time period during which Baumgart claimed the New York flight occurred.

I beg to differ as the V1 was a maritime patrol version on strength with FAGr5 and FAGr5 have no record of V1 ever participating in these trials.

This is a photo of the V1 which flew with FAGr5. It has a band at the tail which I believe was a Mediterranean identification marking for aircraft operational with FAGr5. I have seen this band on Ju-290 associated with FAGr5



This aircraft is the longer fuselage, V2 aircraft. It was a pure transporter and had no upper turret, or bomb aimer's ventral gondola.



This is the V2 aircraft at Prague in April 1945 (according to Joseph P Farrell)



In this photos I have flipped RC+DA to face left and rotated the fuselages so they are both level. I have matched wing chords so that they are to the same scale.



When you match scales and lay them side by side, differences are obvious. The V2 aircraft was an unarmed transport version with a longer 34.4 metre (112 ft. 2.5 in) fuselage than the 31.1 metres V1.

The V2 also appears to have it's nose shorter ahead of the wing than the V1. Also Junkers company records indicate that the Ju-390 A1 production aircraft is recorded having flown. Author Geoffrey brooks has advises me that in October 1943 Air Marshall Erhard Milch okayed a recommendation to dispense with further prototypes and designate the next Ju-390 as the production A series

[Simon_G]

Originally Posted by Simon_G

Werke nr J900183, Ju290-A7 withdrawn as KR+LP which became T9+WK
Werke nr J900182, Ju290-A9, withdrawn as KR+LM which became T9+UK
Werke nr J900185, Ju290-A7 withdrawn as KR+LN which became T9+VK

Originally Posted by Grinchen

Simon,
Firstly your list with Stkz and Vbkz information connected to 0182, 0183 and 0185 is not correct. Check Ott and Kösslers data in Die Grosse Dessauer from Aviatic Verlag.

Thanks for pointing that out Grinchen. My advice that T9+WK was previously KR+LP came from DerAdlerIstGelandet at ww2aircraft. I never questioned his advice. DerAdlerIstGelandet was not the source that 182,183 and 185 flew Manchuria flights. Just the stkz claim.

Werke nr J900185 was KR+LP, so on the advice of someone else who juxtaposed Stammkennzeichen I made a mistake. However I stand by the claim that 182,183 and 185 were the aircraft involved.

KR+LL Junkers Ju290 A-7 W.Nr.290-0110181
KR+LM Junkers Ju290 A-9 W.Nr.290-0110182
KR+LN Junkers Ju290 A-9 W.Nr.290-0110183
KR+LO Junkers Ju290 v8 A-7 W.Nr.290-0110184
KR+LP Junkers Ju290 A-7 W.Nr.290-0110185
KR+LQ Junkers Ju290 A-7 W.Nr.290-0110186