AMX vs Harrier for usefulness in a carrier

[F-18 Hamburger]

In another thread, me and some other chaps were discussing possible A-4 replacements for the Brazilian Sao Paulo.

These included

maintaining the A-4,
navalizing the AMX
or
acquiring surplus harriers (Sea or Gr.4?)

the latter sounded interesting but does it offer enough capabilities over the AMX? I would assume it does over the A-4 at least.

[Charlie Echo]

Navalizing the AMX would be awfully expensive, and there are serious doubts if that underpowered bird could be launched with any kind of useful fuel of weapons load. Re-engining wouldn´t be cost-effective either.

Although the Harrier doesn´t sound bad, the most likely thing to happen is some kind of A-4 upgrade. Without major alterations, a Harrier woulnd´t benefit from the catapults, and wouldn´t have a ski-jump to take off with a better load.

All in all, the sole existance of the carrier is matter of a lot of discussion. So, I guess the Navy won´t put any serious money on it. OTOH, wothout money the thing more and more a white elephant. There you have your fabulous "vicious circle"...

[F-18 Hamburger]

Carlos, I didn't know you were Brazilian, all this time I thought you were British! Lets talk in Portuguese some time, I'm bad but decent

[Adelphi]

"All in all, the sole existance of the carrier is matter of a lot of discussion. So, I guess the Navy won´t put any serious money on it. OTOH, wothout money the thing more and more a white elephant. There you have your fabulous "vicious circle"..."

Sorry, but you are wrong, our navy knows very well the importance of an aircraft carrier. The problem is our stupid press!!!
The A-12 São Paulo will be upgraded with new sistems, radars, CIWS(Bofors Trinity?) and SAMs(Aspide 2000?).

regards,
Adelphi

[PhantomII]

wouldn´t be cost-effective either.

Somehow I doubt when you're trying to find a good replacement for an aging aircraft that cost is always at the front of the priority list.

Giving new production AMX's the EJ-200 engine wouldn't be all that much more expensive. In fact I think that navalizing the AMX might not be such a bad idea. When you think about it, what else is in the class of the A-4 that is suitable for carrier operations aside from the Super Etendard, which isn't in production anymore anyway. The Hornet is a bit too big for the Sao Paulo I believe, and the larger Super Hornet is the only version in production anyway. I say if they don't keep updating the A-4's then at least look into a navalized AMX. If they can navalize the MiG-29 then they can certainly navalize the AMX.

[F-18 Hamburger]

Originally Posted by PhantomII

Giving new production AMX's the EJ-200 engine wouldn't be all that much more expensive. In fact I think that navalizing the AMX might not be such a bad idea. When you think about it, what else is in the class of the A-4 that is suitable for carrier operations aside from the Super Etendard, which isn't in production anymore anyway. The Hornet is a bit too big for the Sao Paulo I believe, and the larger Super Hornet is the only version in production anyway. I say if they don't keep updating the A-4's then at least look into a navalized AMX. If they can navalize the MiG-29 then they can certainly navalize the AMX.

My MacDonald Douglas loving friend, there is a similar thread on feasibility of aircraft for the Foch here, much of what we discussed is similar to your points
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=39045
but for now I kind of prefer keeping it strictly to A-4, AMX and Harrier.

Also I must state, the MiG-29 is a Thrust King, the AMX is impotent where it counts.

[Iranian F-14A]

What about surplus A-7Es? The United States sold some recently to Thailand's Navy,and while these aren't deployed on a carrier,they would make a good replacement for the A-4s,as thats what the US Navy replaced its A-4s with.As a 2nd option I'd go with the Naval AMX,sounds like a good idea to me,probbley make a decent little attack bird and who knows,maybe Brazil could talk Italy into producing some on their AMX line to replace or complament their AV-8B Harrier IIs.If they did this,it would off set some of the costs of just one country producing a special version.

[PhantomII]

I didn't think about refurbished A-7's. Not a bad idea at all, and that would give the Brazilians a true long-range attack capabiliy off their carrier. The A-7 has some serious legs, and can carry a huge warload. But if not that then I still say go with naval AMX.

[SteveO]

How about a T-45 Goshawk with Hawk 100 and 200 series capabilities?
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/t45/
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/hawk/

[A-29]

When French Navy was developing the Rafale, they have considered the purchase of some Hornets to replace old Crusaders. Some tests have been made but not went ahead.

According to our budget which is tight, an upgrade of the A-4 fleet is not that bad.

Buying AV-8B plus is another option, it can perform a lot of roles including BVR capabilities. As the carrier will be upgraded, a ski jump could be included in the package.

Regards,

[Hammer]

A High placed Admiral in the BN once told me that they had gone to such trouble to reaquire the capabilities of a standard (catapults and arrestor wires) that the choice of a STOVL fighter could undermine the whole effort. What they want is something even larger than the São Paulo (Ex FN Foch) able to carry the full range of carrier borne missions.

The biggest problem today is the lack of adequate carrier aircraft options for operation in ships smaller than the average Nimitz behemoth... Ant I believe this situation will only get worse in the following years...

Any sort of upgrading of the A-4s seems to me like a humongous waste of money, no matter how much cash you throw at this aircraft it gets no closer to being able to protect a mid-sized fleet in the current environment... The A-4 has to be able to face off against not only naval fighters but land based ones too!

The only good news recently is the appearance of the Su-33, the MiG-29K and the Su-25K (or whatever the thing is called today The Rafale is a formidable aircraft but definetly not in the same league as a modernized Sea Flanker...

During the recent FX competition the Lockheed F-16 has always been the "non-player" due to the US Goverments unwillingness to transfer sensitive avionics technologies to Brazil, I wonder if the Brazilian Navy would (or should) be less demanding then the FAB on this issue. Another concept that is stating to take grips in the Brazilian armed forces is the issue of inter service cooperation and compatibility. Maybe if the new FX and the new aircraft carrier plane could be from the same "family" there should be some logistics benefits to it.

If we follow down this road then the Su-33, MiG-29K, Boeing F-18 and Rafale would turn to be the sole options for this double function aircraft. Assuming the A-12 could be fit with a suitable bow ski-jump, reinforced elevators and arrestor gear and deck plating for the use of the significantly heavier russian jets.

If the fighter aircraft is one problematic issue the other functions are clearly far worse cases: COD, AEW, Tanker & ASW aircraft are harder and harder to come by, maybe if the surplus US Navy Lockheed S-3 Vikings could be used as a single base type for all these functions... The Hawkeye is the only winged option for the AEW mission with radar equiped SeaKings and Kamovs as the sole (definetly poorer) option...

For ASW the idea of using veteran S-2Ts is a scary concept if not them... helos, again, with teir short range penalty

COD, the Greyhound is way too big and expensive...

I only wish the Brazilian navy could buy the barebones S-3 rusting away in the desert and that Embraer would pack their R-99s up-to-date eletronic gear aboard them... I dream...

I wonder how is the UK, France, Russia, India, Spain and Thailand to name some aircraft carrier operating countries are facing this situation?

Comments?

Regards

[milavia]

Those A-4s have quite some years to go. By the time they need replacement the AMX fleet has used up quite some hours of their life.

I suppose they would want a multi-roler and a one-type fleet. The A-7 lacks in the A-A role I think. The Su-25UTG not an option. How about the F/A-18 Hornet, ex-Canadian for example? Or is the carrier too small for them?

A Hawk/Goshawk is a good one, but those will have to be new bought as well. The purchase cost would be about the same as Hornets, but operating cost would be lower and you got an airframe that will last for quite some years.

[A-29]

I mentioned earlier that French Navy made some tests with the Hornet at Foch´s deck (today´s Brazilian Navy carrier São Paulo). I doubt that Brazilian Navy has enough funds to buy and operate the Hornet.

[seahawk]

Originally Posted by Iranian F-14A

What about surplus A-7Es? The United States sold some recently to Thailand's Navy,and while these aren't deployed on a carrier,they would make a good replacement for the A-4s,as thats what the US Navy replaced its A-4s with.As a 2nd option I'd go with the Naval AMX,sounds like a good idea to me,probbley make a decent little attack bird and who knows,maybe Brazil could talk Italy into producing some on their AMX line to replace or complament their AV-8B Harrier IIs.If they did this,it would off set some of the costs of just one country producing a special version.

A-7s ?? I doubt refurbishing the few remianing examples would be an expensive adventure.

The obvious solution would be used F/A-18s.

[Charlie Echo]

Originally Posted by F-18 Hamburger

Carlos, I didn't know you were Brazilian, all this time I thought you were British! Lets talk in Portuguese some time, I'm bad but decent

Cheers, Senhor McDonald! Você está autorizado a escrever em português aqui quando quiser! Don´t worry about quality, since my English isn´t that perfect either!

[Charlie Echo]

Originally Posted by Adelphi

"All in all, the sole existance of the carrier is matter of a lot of discussion. So, I guess the Navy won´t put any serious money on it. OTOH, wothout money the thing more and more a white elephant. There you have your fabulous "vicious circle"..."

Sorry, but you are wrong, our navy knows very well the importance of an aircraft carrier. The problem is our stupid press!!!
The A-12 São Paulo will be upgraded with new sistems, radars, CIWS(Bofors Trinity?) and SAMs(Aspide 2000?).

regards,
Adelphi

If one thinks about the Barroso corvette or Tikuna submarine "sagas" or about the decomissioning of Type 22 and Garcia frigates, he´d say that´s very very very optimistic view.

I´m pretty frank about this one: the only usefulness of A-12 Sao Paulo is to preserve the capability and know-how to operate carriers. It´s not a operational combat machine, and it won´t be in the short-medium term. It was cheap to buy, USD 12 millions, but is way beyond the logistic and budgetary capability of the Navy.

And that´s a pretty expensive manner to preserve potential capabilities.

[Charlie Echo]

Originally Posted by Iranian F-14A

What about surplus A-7Es? The United States sold some recently to Thailand's Navy,and while these aren't deployed on a carrier,they would make a good replacement for the A-4s,as thats what the US Navy replaced its A-4s with.As a 2nd option I'd go with the Naval AMX,sounds like a good idea to me,probbley make a decent little attack bird and who knows,maybe Brazil could talk Italy into producing some on their AMX line to replace or complament their AV-8B Harrier IIs.If they did this,it would off set some of the costs of just one country producing a special version.

The Corsair II would be a good mud mover, but the carrier group needs an outer protection screen in the form of air defense fighters. Hence, the chosen platform would have to be a multirole fighter.

Multiroles: A-4, F/A-18A/C, Harrier, or the "Goshawk 200". In the Naval Forum, someone posted some data about Sao Paulo´s catapults and lifts: they could handle a Hornet (A/C) without its full load. The Subpar Hornet is out of question, as is a fully loaded regular Hornet.

*** Since the Brazilian military has cancelled a much more needed program - the FX, needed to protect Brazilian airspace and acquire technology - I seriously doubt that the Navy would be allowed to get new-built fighters, such as a AMX-N or Goshawk. So, it could be an upgraded A-4 or an used Hornet.

[PhantomII]

How is the Rafale not in the same league as a naval Flanker? First off, the Russians aren't even putting forth a naval Flanker on the export market (obviously due to the fact that not very many nations have carriers to begin with), and secondly, when it reaches full F3 standard, the Rafale, which is already superior to the Su-33 in my opinion, will blow the naval Flanker away because it will have the latest avionics as well as a huge array of air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons. Even at F1 Standard the Rafale is a superb air defense fighter for the French fleet. They have more than proven their worth in exercises against U.S. Navy F-14 and F/A-18's. I'd take the Rafale M over the Su-33 any day of the week.

I also kinda like the idea of the Goshawk although I'm not sure what capabilities it would really offer over the current A-4 fleet aside from newer airframes and wingtip AAM rails, which I suppose is a good thing though.

[Crusader]

Originally Posted by Charlie Echo

The Corsair II would be a good mud mover, but the carrier group needs an outer protection screen in the form of air defense fighters. Hence, the chosen platform would have to be a multirole fighter.

Multiroles: A-4, F/A-18A/C, Harrier, or the "Goshawk 200". In the Naval Forum, someone posted some data about Sao Paulo´s catapults and lifts: they could handle a Hornet (A/C) without its full load. The Subpar Hornet is out of question, as is a fully loaded regular Hornet.

*** Since the Brazilian military has cancelled a much more needed program - the FX, needed to protect Brazilian airspace and acquire technology - I seriously doubt that the Navy would be allowed to get new-built fighters, such as a AMX-N or Goshawk. So, it could be an upgraded A-4 or an used Hornet.

Could not the A-7s be upgraded tp improve a2a ability? They already have rails for Sidewinders, and I would think they could be bought second hand from US stock fairly cheaply. I would think that they would still have a good bit of life left in them.

[tenthije]

Would it be possible for a Grippen to operate from carriers? They have already been designed with somewhat rough runways in mind as well as short take-offs and landings on roads. This would indicate that at least the potential is there to convert it into a decent carrier plane?

[Iranian F-14A]

The A-7E has a good Air to Air capability and I read that they were in fact used as a fighter in the United States navy when the catapults were down and F-14s could not be launched since the A-7E could be launched without a catapult.Sure they only carry AIM-9s,but what are the Brazilian A-4s carrying now? Sidewinders.So there is no difference there.The A-7E also has a greater range,and heavier weapon payload then the A-4.Regardless though,the A-4s aren't bad,after all Australia used the A-4Gs as fighters to defend the Aussie Carrier Melbourne.As a replacement though,the A-7 or AMX can't be beat.Both are affordable and in the case of the AMX,produced locally.Brazil doesn't have the biggest defence budget,and after cancelling its F-X fighters,I doubt you're going to be seeing Rafales or even F/A-18s flying for the Brazilian Navy.And as far as outer defence of the carrier goes,the AMX or A-7E could handle what would be encountered in South America.I don't think Argentina or Venezuela have Tu-22M-3 Backfires yet,so Brazil should need a fleet defender combo like the F-14/Phoenix for awhile.

[A-29]

Brazilian A-4s A2A weapon is the Sidewinder. The Navy wants to upgrade them much in the same of the current upgrades on the F-5 and AMX fleet which will be interesting, but, right now, there is no budget for. Without budget, the Navy can do nothing. The Hornet is a good option, even the older models, it can be operated from São Paulo´s deck and definitely would increase A2A, A2G capability and if someday funds permitt, it will be nice to see upgraded A-4s and Hornets sharing the deck of the carrier..........interesting carrier wing composition, A-4s, F/A-18s, Sea Kings and Super Pumas.

Regards,

[Stormeagle]

Just to give merrit to your saying Iranian... Greece has been flying A7H for 30 years now. At some point in the late 70s early 80s, they were flying CAP and Interception missions over the Aegean against the THK (Turkish Air Force) based on their radar, 2 AIM9s, high maneuverability and pilot's guts.

[anderstryggve]

Originally Posted by tenthije

Would it be possible for a Grippen to operate from carriers? They have already been designed with somewhat rough runways in mind as well as short take-offs and landings on roads. This would indicate that at least the potential is there to convert it into a decent carrier plane?

Saab supposedly said that a carrier version of Gripen could be designed. But that would of course raise the cost a lot. And Gripen is not cheap as it is.

Any nation interested in obtaining a carrier borne fighter would probably do better in buying F-18s or Rafaels.

[Sens]

Originally Posted by Charlie Echo

Navalizing the AMX would be awfully expensive, and there are serious doubts if that underpowered bird could be launched with any kind of useful fuel of weapons load. Re-engining wouldn´t be cost-effective either.

Although the Harrier doesn´t sound bad, the most likely thing to happen is some kind of A-4 upgrade. Without major alterations, a Harrier woulnd´t benefit from the catapults, and wouldn´t have a ski-jump to take off with a better load.

All in all, the sole existance of the carrier is matter of a lot of discussion. So, I guess the Navy won´t put any serious money on it. OTOH, wothout money the thing more and more a white elephant. There you have your fabulous "vicious circle"...

Navalizing is awfull expensive = yes.
Underpowered = no.

A-4F/AMX have the same th/wt ratio.

[Hammer]

Originally Posted by Iranian F-14A

Regardless though,the A-4s aren't bad,after all Australia used the A-4Gs as fighters to defend the Aussie Carrier Melbourne.

But Iranian, just when was this? In this day and age would the Australian Navy sail it's CV into waters where Su30MKK, MKI our MKM prowl? In one word, NEVER! The current military value of an (even seriously-upgraded) A-4 is very limited... Skyhawk fleet numbers are evaporating as we discuss this... The number of airforces and navies interested in upgrades of this family is minimal. I believe Brazil should relegate the A-4 to a carrier pilot qualificantioon role as it is and set it´eyes on some future multipurpose fighter platform that already can use modern weaponry in the A2A and A2G arenas. The whole developing work is very expensive and time consuming, and, not forgeting, very risky.

Unfortunately the AMX as a product is in its dying phase. The Italian decision to mothball some 65 aircraft (around 30% of the WHOLE world fleet) is the kiss of death unless Brazil becomes really bold and purchases these aircraft to set up two more attack (anti-ship) squadrons. No one would seriously consider deveoloping a naval version with only 20 aircraft as the whole world-wide market. Don't forget a AMX naval variant would essentialy do the same job as an A-4 with no apparent performance or cost benefit. In this case let's stick to the tried and proved alternative: the A-4.

Comments?

Regards,

Hammer

[Flood]

Originally Posted by F-18 Hamburger

acquiring surplus harriers (Sea or Gr.4?)

Would have to be Sea Harriers - there has never been a GR4 and those T4s left are probably being phased out, if they haven't been already.

Flood

[F-18 Hamburger]

Originally Posted by Flood

Would have to be Sea Harriers - there has never been a GR4 and those T4s left are probably being phased out, if they haven't been already.

Flood

Sorry I meant GR7, was thinking of Tornado i suppose. Thanks for subtlely pointing it Tom.

[Iranian F-14A]

I realize that it was some years ago the Aussies used the A-4Gs.But as far as the AMX program goes,I assumed it was doing fine,seeing as Venezuela just ordered some of the two seat AMX ATAs to help replace their aging T-2 Buckeyes.Also,Lets look quickly at the alternatives.
1.Sea Harrier-Being phased out of FAA service in its FA.2 model,therefore surplus airframes would exist but training would be difficult seeing as the Brazilian Navy has no prior V/STOL experance.Also the Sea Harrier doesn't have a very wide array of weapon options,and is mostley used in the fleet defence/interceptor role.This is why the RAF deployed its Harrier GR.7s on the carriers,to provide an attack element.
2.Goshawk 2000-Not a bad idea,as Malaysia used Hawks to replace its A-4PTMs but in this case,I'd have to disagree.The Goshawk wouldn't have a very large weapon load,and its range/weapon types used would be the same as the A-4s already in service.In my opinion,these would be almost as worthless as the Yak-38 Forger was in the Russian Navy.
3.Rafale M-Great multirole fighter,great naval aircraft,but out of Brazil's price range.Although it could operate from the Foch class carrier Brazil bought off France and in a way,I'm surprised the French goverment didn't offer some Rafales to go with it.
4.Su-33 Sea Flanker-Highly unlikely for 2 reasons.First,the airforce cancelled its order/intention to order the Su-35 on cost grounds and therefore I doubt the Navy would get its own Su-33s.2nd is the fact,as someone already pointed out,that Russia isn't marketing the Su-33 for export and doesn't have that many itself after its carrier program got cut.Then theres also the little fact that the Foch class carrier is smaller then the Russian carrier.Carrying a lare fighter like the Su-33 would be difficult since the elevators are too small and they would have to stay on the deck and very few could be carried.The Su-33 is again also more like a Russian F-14,a large,costly fleet defence fighter with little of no multirole capability.
5.Mig-29K Fulcrum-A good choice,great multirole aircraft but again I doubt Brazil could commit to a Russian aircraft and I doubt the Air Force would go for the land based Mig-29.Still,as far as a new buy aircraft,this would be the best choice.
6.F/A-18A/C Hornet-Surplus Hornets do exist but the export market isn't really there,most going to Spain,which was already a Hornet user.

That would leave the AMX-N and A-7Es as the best 2 possible choices.
I also like the idea of Brazil buying surplus S-3B Vikings.

[Charlie Echo]

But MiG-29K is a STOBAR naval fighter, and A-12 Sao Paulo operates CATOBAR aircraft. Hence, either the MiG-29K would have to be adapted for catapult lauch OR the carrier would have to receive a ski jump. This kind of adaptation is often too expensive to be practical. Nevertheless, there were some "mini ski-jumps tested on Foch for the Rafale, but I don't know if those ones could be useful for a MiG-29K.