P-15 A With Pictures and Specs.

[Chacko]

Finally the much awaited pictures and specs of P-15A.

Thanks to Mr. Austin Joseph and Mr. M Majumdar.

Discussion

[Himanshu]

The design is still cluterred.. though much better then the Delhi class..

What are the technical specifications of Israel's STAR radar

RAN40L
http://www.naval-technology.com/cont...ms/press4.html

Russian Salyut Pod Beryo Zovik Radar (It's known as PODBERYOZOVIK-E FAMILY OF RADARS)
http://www.milparade.com/security/35/042x.htm

[Chacko]

Check this for STAR

dubbed Multi-Function Surveillance, Track & Guidance Radar (MF-STAR EL/M-2248) utilizes four static faces, mounted on an elevated wedge shape structure. Each face weigh approx. 1.5 tons, These lightweight flat antennae panels can be tailored to fit various shapes and ship designs.

The system can instantaneously create and direct multi-beam toward specific targets while continuing to scan the sky and sea for other targets. It uses Pulse-Doppler techniques, backed by beam-forming ECCM techniques, to overcome hostile countermeasures and rapidly extract tracks even in heavy clutter and from low signature targets.

With its Track While Scan (TWS) capability, the new system provides the simultaneous multi-engagement capability for the ship's weapon systems. It offers 3D long range (>250 km) surveillance and 3D medium range (>25km missile detection range) automatic threat alert, for activation of the ship's defensive systems. It also continuously scans the horizon for search after missiles, helicopters and other threats, which it can automatically classify.

The system provides very high tracking update rate and accuracy for priority targets and fast response to detected threat alerts. It also provides mid-course guidance for active or semi-active anti-aircraft missiles and illumination for semi-active guided missiles. Another feature is the splash detection capability, required for gunnery support.

I will have to look into if i have Russian Salyut Pod Beryo Zovik Radar and RAN40L specs

[Himanshu]

How much will it cost...

When will it get commissioned..

[Austin]

This is what i found on RAN-40L
http://www.analisidifesa.it/articolo...id/2814/ver/EN

The RAN 40L is an advanced D-band, fully solid state phased array, 3D Air Surveillance radar that ensures an instrumental detection of aircraft up to 400 Km in range and up to 30 Km in height. The RAN 40L is the new state-of-the-art radar system, designed to operate in modern complex naval combat defence systems, providing plots and tracks data for Tactical Picture Compilation and for Air Traffic Control support.

Sophisticated technology allows the RAN 40L to rapidly adapt to a broad spectrum of changing operational scenarios where jammers coexist with heavy clutter presence. The use of multiple simultaneous independently phase controlled pencil beams provides high flexibility in scanning and very high data rate resulting highly effective for clutter processing. Each beam provides monopulse altitude measurements. Reduced transmitted peak power provides resistance against ARM (Anti Radiation Missile) and ECM (Electronic Counter Measures

[Victor]

From BR:

[Wanshan]

What does the model have for CIWS? It does not look like 2x Kashtan. Is it a) 2x2 AK 630, or b) 2x1 Ak630 plus VL Barak?

[Srbin]

Is there a good overview of all the ships and subs out there like there are for combat aircraft?

[Muns]

Is that a Dhanush missile on the front right side? (starboard bow?)
Any comments on SRBM's being loaded onto ships and their advantages in future combat?

[Severodvinsk]

No, it's a Brahmos.
Comment on SRBMs, bunch of stupid business... Dhanush was probably a test to see if the missile could be launched from a moving ship. For later application on submarines. Haven't seen any other Navy toying with the idea of putting anything like this in service.
Good points, high speed, yet nowadays some SAM systems can intercept this kind of missiles. Guidance is not as extensively needed as for long range cruise-missiles, the thing will end up destroying something at least.
Bad points, via the trajectory, the launching vessel can be found quite easily. The payload has to be nuclear or the thing is too expensive and big (you can't put many Dhanush missiles on one ship). It's expensive compared to a Tomahawk missile... Has a rather short range and therefor the ship has to come quite close to the enemy shore.
And of course there is already some defense against such missiles nowadays.
Hence, in short, I really think India was just testing to launch ballistic missiles from moving ships and nothing more than that.

[Muns]

Thanks Sverodvinsk,

A recent comment from the Naval Chief from Bharat Rakshak :

India To Clinch French Sub Deal Next Year: Naval Chief
By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE, NEW DELHI


The Indian government is likely to give final approval early next year to a two billion euro ($2.5 billion) deal with a French firm for the building of six Scorpene submarines, the naval chief said Nov. 30.

Admiral Arun Prakash said the deal has been cleared by the defense and finance ministries and was awaiting final approval of the security cabinet, India’s highest strategic decision-making body headed by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.

"We hope to get this cleared in 2005 because restoration of our submarine building capacity is our top priority," Prakash said, describing the Scorpene deal as a "much-delayed project."

Highly-placed Indian sources told Agence France-Presse the Scorpene deal was likely to be on the agenda of the security cabinet next February.

Other Indian sources said French state-owned shipbuilder Naval Constructions Directorate (DCN) would transfer technology to New Delhi which would then build the six 1,600-tonne submarines in India.

The vessels, although diesel-powered, could be adapted to fit a nuclear power unit, which matches India’s long-term defense strategy.

Prakash said the construction of the Scorpenes was part of the navy’s ambitious plans to induct a Soviet-era aircraft carrier, build a similar vessel here and acquire 19 other warships now under construction at various Indian shipyards.

He said the Indian navy had this year inducted three frigate-class ships -- one of them of Russian origin -- and two fast attack vessels in its fleet of warships.

Prakash also said the Russian aircraft carrier, Admiral Gorshkov, would be refurbished and handed over to the Indian navy on schedule by 2008.

Gorshkov, which joined the Soviet forces 18 years ago, would fill the vacuum left by the 1997 scrapping of India’s first aircraft carrier, INS Vikrant, which had been in service since 1961.

The delivery will coincide with the mothballing of India’s remaining aircraft carrier, INS Viraat, four years later.

The admiral said the November 7 test-firing of a nuclear-capable missile from on-board a frigate offered India’s 137-ship navy a new dimension in strategic warfare.

"The proof of the concept is now established. It can now be carried and fired from a ship and how we use it is a different issue," Prakash said of the 350-kilometre (217-mile) range missile named Dhanush (Bow).

He also said the navy was also ready to induct BrahMos, a supersonic cruise missile jointly built with Russia, in all its new and old warships.

"Our maritime interests are vast and need protection.

"We have a 7,000-kilometre (4,340-mile) coastline, 1,200 islands and an economic zone of 2.01 million square kilometers (0.77 million square miles)."

"Ninety percent of India’s trade volume and 77 percent by value is sea-borne, much of it carried by Indian merchant vessels and naturally they need protection," the naval chief said.

[JonS]

Dhanush was probably a test to see if the missile could be launched from a moving ship. For later application on submarines. Haven't seen any other Navy toying with the idea of putting anything like this in service.

there was speculation that israel is working on naval version of lora my guess is that it will used instead of dhanush onboard vessels.
As for ciws for the P-15A its up for speculation but there were reports of more barak systems being ordered my guess is mixture Barak and ak-630 will fitted on the vessel rather than Kashtan because the latter require deck penetration and P-15A doesnt really seem to have room for that.

[Wanshan]

Originally Posted by JonS

there was speculation that israel is working on naval version of lora my guess is that it will used instead of dhanush onboard vessels.
As for ciws for the P-15A its up for speculation but there were reports of more barak systems being ordered my guess is mixture Barak and ak-630 will fitted on the vessel rather than Kashtan because the latter require deck penetration and P-15A doesnt really seem to have room for that.

Well, that's not entirely true. IMHO 1 Kashtan mount will take up about the same (under)deck space as 2x AK 630. Compare for example the russian Udaloy 1 (2x2 AK630) and Udaloy 2 (2x Kashtan). Also compare the russian large cruisers: newer units have 1 Kashtan mount where older ones had 2x AK630.

[Wanshan]

Originally Posted by Himanshu

The design is still cluterred.. though much better then the Delhi class..

What are the technical specifications of Israel's STAR radar

RAN40L
http://www.naval-technology.com/cont...ms/press4.html

Russian Salyut Pod Beryo Zovik Radar (It's known as PODBERYOZOVIK-E FAMILY OF RADARS)
http://www.milparade.com/security/35/042x.htm

IMHO this is the STAR EL/M-2238 (as installed on INS GANGA) and not the MF-STAR EL/M-2248

STAR EL/M-2238


The 3D-STAR is a multi-purpose, modern naval radar system, representing superior performance capabilities in surface and air search as well as threat alert. The STAR is particularly well suited to supporting the operations of anti-air missile (AAM) weapon systems and is also capable of supporting surface gunnery engagements through a unique splash-spotting capability.
The STAR is a fully coherent S-band pulse Doppler 3D multibeam and multimode search radar. The radar performance Long Range air surveillance combined with surface surveillance and, at the same time, provides fast detection and automatic threat alert of air targets with an extremely low false alarm rate. The STAR supports surface gunnery engagement and anti-air warfare by excellent designation to the fire control system. The STAR, with its superior tracking capability of surface and air targets, is the most cost-effective solution for medium-size ships (Corvette-Frigate), serving as the surface/air search radar, in addition to its threat alert and surface gunnery support roles. The STAR's azimuth and elevation track accuracy and its high update rate, make it an excellent designator for anti air & anti missile weapon and for ECM or chaff systems.

Main Features
-Pulse Doppler Detection of Air & Surface Targets.
-3D Elevation Coverage.
-Automatic Track-While-Scan (TWS).
-Very Low False Alarm Rate.
-IFF Correlation.
-Advanced Programmable Signal Processing
-Powerful Data Processing.
-Extensive Built-In-Test (BIT)
-Automatic Designation to Ship's Systems.
-Variety of Interface Capabilities.

Typical Performance
-Fighter aircraft detection at 150 Km (medium antenna).
-Automatic threat alert for attacking missile at 25 Km.
-Surface target detection up to radar horizon.
-Track-While-Scan (TWS) for multiple air and surface targets.

Operational Capabilities
The STAR provides long range detection, high quality missile detection and designation, automatic threat alert, track while scan of air and surface targets and high spatial resolution and accuracy.

Radar Configuration
The STAR is available in single or dual face antenna configurations. The dual face antenna configuration provides double update rate, has two radar transmitters and provides simultaneous Threat Alert and Long Range detection while search, by waveform optimization and inherent radar redundancy. Both configurations are available in two antenna sizes: large or medium size.

Specifications: Medium Antenna / Large Antenna
-Faces: Single / Dual
-Frequencÿ: S-Band / S-Band
-Stabilization: 20° roll & pitch / 20° roll & pitch
-Instrumented Range: 200 Km / 350 Km
-Below deck weight: 1300 Kg / 2000 Kg
-Above deck weight: 750 Kg / 2400 Kg
-Power consumption: 21 KVA / 34 KVA

ELTA Electronics Industries, a subsidiary of Israeli Aircraft Industries, of Ashdod, Israel, has recently sold a number of its EL/M-2238 STAR Naval Multipurpose Surveillance Search and Threat Alert Radars to several customers worldwide. The STAR is a fully coherent S-band pulse-Doppler multi-beam multi-mode and multi-function radar. The radar performs long range surface and air surveillance in azimuth and elevation, provides fast detection and automatic threat alert of air targets and sea skimming missiles, and at the same time serves as designator for the ship's surface gunnery and anti air/anti missile fire control systems. This combination of functions, formerly requiring two separate radars, makes the STAR the ideal cost effective solution for small and medium size ships, where space and mast-top weight and area is at premium. The STAR features include 3D surface and elevation coverage and detection of air and surface targets, automatic multiple target track -while scan (TWS), very low false alarm rate, automatic designation to the ships' weapon systems and interface capability with other sensors. The selection of S-band, and combination of pulse-Doppler configuration, advanced programmable signal processing and waveform programming capability, ensures peak performance even in extreme weather and clutter conditions. ELTA has accumulated vast experience in the design, development and manufacture of advanced, state-of-the-art naval radars, and the STAR is a fourth generation in this line. The STAR is currently in series production, and attracts high interest among naval operators around the world.

MF-STAR EL/M-2248


Elta Systems Ltd of Israel has unveiled a new naval active phased array multifunction radar. Operating in E/F-band (S-band), the EL/M-2248 MF-STAR includes four 'instantaneous multibeam' solid-state receive/transmit arrays with a weight of 1,500kg each (plus 900kg below deck).
The MF-STAR, which follows a trend set by active phased array radars such as the Alenia Marconi Systems Sampson, CEA Technologies CEA-FAR, Raytheon AN/SPY-3 and Thales APAR and SEAPAR, would be capable of automatically initiating tracks beyond 250km for high-flying fighter aircraft and beyond 25km for sea-skimming anti-ship missiles, Elta said.
The system's spatial coverage would cover 360º in azimuth and between -20º to +85º in elevation. Operational capabilities quoted by the Israel Aircraft Industries subsidiary include full littoral warfare support, simultaneous multi-engagement support, active and semi-active missile support, 3-D (three-dimensional) long-range air surveillance, 3-D medium-range threat alert, missile horizon search and threat alert, maritime surface surveillance, target classification (including helicopters) and gunfire control and splash spotting.
According to Elta, the EL/M-2248 MF-STAR's "scalable, modular, lightweight antenna" technology can be "tailored to fit relatively small ship sizes (corvettes and above)". Company literature shows the system installed on one of the Israel Defense Force/Navy three Eilat-class Saar 5 stealth missile corvettes, but it is unknown whether such a retrofit is actually planned.

[Indian1973]

for a surveillance radar on a capital ship, a 300Km range is needed.
Perhaps they will get ELTA to install a bigger version...there is still
5 yrs.

[JonS]

Originally Posted by Wanshan

Well, that's not entirely true. IMHO 1 Kashtan mount will take up about the same (under)deck space as 2x AK 630. Compare for example the russian Udaloy 1 (2x2 AK630) and Udaloy 2 (2x Kashtan). Also compare the russian large cruisers: newer units have 1 Kashtan mount where older ones had 2x AK630.

no, kashtan requires extensive deck penetration for storage of its missiles thats one of the reason why it hasnt fully replaced ak-630 in most russian vessels and also IN considered kashtan for viraat and Delhi but abandoned due to extensive refitting they would require to carry the system. As u noted all those vessels were redesigned to carry kashtan, P-15A in other hand was already designed to carry ak-630 so without have to redo the design its harder to fight kashtan onto it. Besides IN is in love barak, gorshkov was postponed by couple months because IN wanted barak rather than kashtan but finally relanted dont see why they would not fit barak rather kashtan onto their own vessel.

[Severodvinsk]

hmm, Kashtan is about the best thing around at the moment. Wouldn't think twice when they would ask me wether I want AK-630 or Kashtan. Kashtan it is!! The AK-630s have to work in pairs anyway. So basically you have only 2 CIWS, you would replace them by two Kashtans too, but then you will have an equal amount of guns+ 64 missiles. Indeed deck penetration is necessary and a rather large room is required for the controll too. Yet it doesn't weigh in against the advantages. Barak requires even more space.

[JonS]

Originally Posted by Severodvinsk

hmm, Kashtan is about the best thing around at the moment. Wouldn't think twice when they would ask me wether I want AK-630 or Kashtan. Kashtan it is!! The AK-630s have to work in pairs anyway. So basically you have only 2 CIWS, you would replace them by two Kashtans too, but then you will have an equal amount of guns+ 64 missiles. Indeed deck penetration is necessary and a rather large room is required for the controll too. Yet it doesn't weigh in against the advantages. Barak requires even more space.

no it doesnt barak is strap on system, chileans fitted the barak onto their cluttered county class ddgs very easily and IN has had no difficulties fitting the barak system onto their vessel as well.

[Severodvinsk]

of course it isn't, but ANY VLS needs underdeck space. No strap on there. Of course you can put the missile system on top ofyour deck, and then apply some plates around them, but you can do the same with Kashtan...
Barak is less capable anyway.
I suppose the AK-630 is still the cheapest one around and hence the Indian choice for that system.

[JonS]

the barak module is far smaller weight and size wise than one the kashtan requires, it can be mounted on top of hull as its county destroyer without any ramifications. If latter wasnt true kashtan would have deployed on viraat and would have replaced ak-630 on most russian vessels. As for barak vs kashtan, IN wants standardization of its SAM system 10 more system have been ordered (3 of those for brahmaputra, the rest is probably intended for newer vessels).

[Severodvinsk]

Do you think the Russian Navy is rich? Well IN already has Kashtan on the Talwar frigates and most probably on Gorshkov in the future. So, that would count for the Standardisation too then.

[JonS]

Originally Posted by Severodvinsk

Do you think the Russian Navy is rich? Well IN already has Kashtan on the Talwar frigates and most probably on Gorshkov in the future. So, that would count for the Standardisation too then.

well IN found kashtan peformance lacking according to ToI and but agreed to test Kashtan-M for the gorshkov 04 Jan,

"As part of the deal, the Russians also insisted on fitting the carrier with Kashtan missile systems that provides for self-defence of the ship against high precision weapons.

But India rejected the missiles as their performance was found to be not up to the mark during trials. The Russians then offered a modified Kashtan-M missile system.

Indian officials said the new system would be put through tests before taking a decision on their installation.

"They didn't want Israeli or French missiles to be mounted on the ship but that will depend on how the new Kashkan missiles perform," a senior official told IANS."

But after some googling actually i like to correct myself it seems barak not kashtan-m will be fitted on gorshkov according to tribune report dated jun 2004 even thou reports from jan 2004 were indicating that IN has agreed to test kashtan-M for gorshkov it seems IN wasnt impressed with the tests.

[Harry]

the barak module is far smaller weight and size wise than one the kashtan requires

From what I've seen, Barak cells occupy very little space. It was quite surprising to be informed that a relatively miniscule cut on the Viraat's aft deck was going to hold 16 cells!

[Wanshan]

Originally Posted by JonS

no, kashtan requires extensive deck penetration for storage of its missiles thats one of the reason why it hasnt fully replaced ak-630 in most russian vessels and also IN considered kashtan for viraat and Delhi but abandoned due to extensive refitting they would require to carry the system. As u noted all those vessels were redesigned to carry kashtan, P-15A in other hand was already designed to carry ak-630 so without have to redo the design its harder to fight kashtan onto it. Besides IN is in love barak, gorshkov was postponed by couple months because IN wanted barak rather than kashtan but finally relanted dont see why they would not fit barak rather kashtan onto their own vessel.

1x Kashtan vice 2x AK630: Mainly, Kashtan is taller than 2x AK 630 but has about the same footprint. To the extent there is room to go up, there need not be much difference in below deck volume required.


Udaloy I (2 sets of 2x AK 630 plus 1x Bass Tilt)


Udaloy II (2x Kashtan fire unit + 1x dedicated search radar)


Delhi (P15): (2 sets of 2x AK 630 plus 1x Bass Tilt)

Surely you could fit 1 Kashtan en lieu of 2 AK630s and 1 Bass Tilt (i.e. you got space to go up to accommodate the taller 'box' that Kashtan is)

As for Barak, IN has thus far ordered 17 systems. 1 each went onto INS Viraat, INS Ganga (Godavari class) and INS Delhi (Delhi class). With their respective P15 and P16 sisterships, this accounts for 7 systems. The Brahmaputra and sisterships (P16A) still lack a SAM beyond MANPADS. They are a likely further candidate. So, IMHO 10 out of 17 systems ordered are accounted for. Where will the remaining 7 systems go?

Talwar class: already has Kashtan
P17 "batch I" (Shivalik and first couple of consorts): weapons fit similar to Talwar class, has been depicted with Kashtan.
ex-Gorskov? Possible but unlikely as this has consistenly been depicted with 2 Kashtan incorporated in the front and rear of the island structure and the Russians have consistently opposed attempts to fit it with Barak.

Other possibilities:
ADS (1 planned)
P15A (3 planned)
P28 ASW corvettes (4-6 planned)
P17 "batch II" (?)
Rajput/Kashin upgrade (2-3?)

My assessment is that the remaining 7 Barak systems will go onto:
a) ADS + all 6 P28, or onto
b) ADS + first 4 P28 + 2 upgraded Rajput, or onto
c) ADS + 3 P15A + 3 upgraded Rajput

IMHO (a) is most likely. Like P16 and P16A, P28 will mainly be ASW unit and will have Barak (and only Barak) as self protection SAM. I think it is highly likely that all new built Shtil equipped ships will also receive Kashtan, like Talwar and P17 (Shivalik) classes.

[Indian1973]

of the five Rajputs(kashin), three are planned to be upgraded, the
other two will be retired at end of life. the three newest ranvir, ranjit, ranvijay...the older two being rajput (now a brahmos test vessel) and rana.

a new radar & combat system, brahmos and barak would somewhat improve these ships. I have heard they dont plan to change the old SA-N-1 SAM systems...apparently it manages to score hits on SS-N-2 Styx drones.

[JonS]

i dont think kashtan module is represented accurately in that plastic model will try to find image showing ayout of kashtan i used to have one b4 but cant find it. Anyway one of the problems with kashtan has been its size hence russia tried to find cheaper and smaller alternative ak-630m1-2, palma. I believe the newer kashtan-M model is supposed to few tons lighter and smaller than the orginal.
As for barak i believe more could be ordered that whats IAI reported along with few newspapers when news broke that US will sell few more orions to pakistan no word on how many.

[google]

Wanshan,

Great pic, thanks.

A few questions though;

What's the difference between the AK-300 and AK-630?

Is that a Kashtan-M picture to the very far right? Looks like a new mount with E/O system.

[Severodvinsk]

No, that's the Palma picture. The Kasthan-MO will probably have the same electro-optical guidance.
I know which pictures you mean Jon. I've seen that too, in these pictures the controll room was also shown, with more reload canisters ready.

[Indian1973]

here's a pic of the kashtan-M on talwar class. in what way does it
differ from the new kashtan if any ?

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Talwar17.jpg

[JonS]

Originally Posted by Indian1973

here's a pic of the kashtan-M on talwar class. in what way does it
differ from the new kashtan if any ?

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Talwar17.jpg

nope thats not M it looks bit different here is a image of M along with some info also the website has info on ak-630/306 its manufacturer's website.
http://www.shipunov.com/eng/kvnk/kashtan_m.htm