Syrian Mig-23

[Srbin]

Although I never really believed it before, the Russians and the Syrians say they have shot down over 10 F-16s with their Mig-23s but the Israelis and Americans deny it. I mean what chance is there that this has happend where Mig-23s were armed with BVR weapons and F-16s were limited to AIM-9s that this actually happend?

[Mark2]

I would think that direct, conclusive proof would have been offered if true (esp if done 10x times)

Would be quite the "look what we've done" story to be boasted world-wide.

My opinion however, not fact.

Mark

[Srbin]

Yes, it's important to have facts, real facts but many times things are not decided on facts. Just because you cannot find the wreckages or anything doesn't mean you have not shot down something, many times planes fall into friendly territory which can easily be covered up.

[PhantomII]

Are Syrian Floggers armed with the R-23/24 or are they the downgraded Flogger-E variants armed with the K-13 and R-60?

I wouldn't take those claims seriously though.

We're talking about comparing the pilots of the IDF/AF versus the Syrian Air Force.

Not much competition if you ask me.

[kfadrat]

aaaaah ehim, any SERIOUS researcher would know that the SyAAF actually claims one confirmed F-16 and two others in the battles on 82, the rest is TOTALLY Soviet imagination, the idiots never even managed to spell Syrian pilots' names correctly.

as for weaponry, in 1982 MiG-23MSs were armed with K-13s, MiG-23MFs were armed with R-23s and R-60s, nowadays teh situation is waaaaay too different .


PII, tell me what's so supperior in IsAF pilots ( other than their American made aircraft and weapons ) please, and please stop the " the Sun rises from east and the IsAF controls the skys " BS.

[Srbin]

kfadrat, were those F-16s sopposidely destroyed by R-23s?

[Adrian_44]

> Srbin
> the Russians and the Syrians say they have shot down over 10 F-16s with their Mig-23s
> but the Israelis and Americans deny it.
If they had shot down an F-15 or F-16, don't you think CNN or Al Jezzera would have paid big money to see a crash site of an American fighter?? Remember in the Balkans when a F-117 was shot down? The video was on the television world wide within two hours. The USAF denied the lost until the pilot was picked up.
One did not have to be an aviation expert to be able to tell the uniqueness of the crashsite of a American aircraft.
The wreckage sites are the one thing people who make these claims can not show! In the Middle East people looking up at dogfights happens, not as unique as say a lightning strike.
The Bekaa Valley was littered with the wreckage of FSU designed aircraft but, only one American made aircraft. That was an F-4 Phantom modified for ground attacks with Israeli avionics. So there was a follow attack that bombed the wreckage site of the F-4. By then there were photographs had been takened.

The IDF/AF has admitted that one of its F-15's was hit by an air to air missile, but that the damaged aircraft made it back to its home base. The day and area of the incidents claimed by both countries are about the same.

Adrian

[PhantomII]

Kfadrat,
Must we go through this? 1970, 1973, 1982.......

In each of those cases the IDF/AF was clearly the better trained force, it shows in the kill ratios. The fact that no IDF/AF aircraft were lost in air-to-air combat in the 1982 conflict is pretty impressive. The fact that they wiped out the entire Syrian air defense network in a comparatively short amount of time is pretty impressive. The fact that even when attacked on two fronts (as in 1973), the IDF/AF was able to hold out and ultimately push both Syria and Egypt back (not to mention decimate their air forces in the process) is impressive.

What else do you need me to spell out?

Syrian pilots are simply not as good as their Israeli counterparts. Heck, U.S. pilots aren't as good as their Israeli counterparts.

The Syrians just don't compare. Perhaps your blind hatred for the Israeli's would cause you to believe otherwise, but you're only kidding yourself.

[kfadrat]

for better reading about this I suggest people go the apropriate threads on ACIG.org instead of spreading their illusions and confusions all around.

for example, adrian is talking about the RF-4E or F-4E(S) that was shot down by an SA-8 in an ambush waaaay after the Bekaa Valley air-battles ended ... still he confuses it with the actuall fight, he also talks about the F-15 that took a direct R-60 hit from a MiG-21, which BTW proves my thiory about Russian equipment being responsible for the loss of the 1982 battle in the air.

and I'll have to consentrate on this in the air thing, although from a stratigical point of view the battle wasn't even lost in the air, the SyAAF kept fighting till the last moment, keeping the Israelis from controling the skys and providing adequate protection for the ground troops to fight on, haven't they sacrificed their planes and pilots the situation on the ground would've changed in a really bad way.

adding to that that 13 Israeli aircraft are now known to have been shot down in 82 ( many of them confirmed with PICTURES of wrecks ) and that 10 other cases are still on research by people who are looking for the facts not just sitting on their arses - like a young American friends of ours on this forum - and repeating like a parrot what the Israelis say, we know that the battle was indeed fought with profecency, but what to do about missiles that aren't good enough to kill or radars that are easy to jamm ?????

finally PII, would you stop showing yourself as an idiot and start making sense with your posts, instead of saying the ratios from 70,73 & 82 say Israelis are better I would like you to present us with the ratios, can you do that for us son?

[PhantomII]

13 IDF/AF planes were lost in air-to-air combat?

Well that's certainly news to me.....

If you actually read my post then you'd have noticed that...

And you want ratios? Ok. I'll do my best.

Perhaps I don't have the access to secret information you do, but I'll attempt to find some rough figures, and we'll see who has the better pilots....

Well in adding up the tallies of air-to-air victories that were confirmed that I can find, the overall kill ratio of the IDF/AF versus the SyAF is about 5.4 to 1. That's pretty one-sided I'd say....

Now I guess we can go through each conflict (1948, pre-1956, 1956, pre-1967, 1967, pre-1973, 1973, pre-1982, 1982, and post-1982)

1948

1 to 1 (yay they're even..... )

pre-1956 & 1956

N/A

pre-1967

2 to 0

1967

5.3 to 1

pre-1973 (i.e. War of Attrition and any victories up until the Yom Kippur War)

12 to 1

1973 (Yom Kippur War)

1.5 to 1

pre-1982

3 to 1

1982

93 to 0

post-1982

6 to 0

So now tell me......how is it that IDF/AF pilots are NOT superior?

[kfadrat]

Originally Posted by PhantomII

13 IDF/AF planes were lost in air-to-air combat?

Well that's certainly news to me.....

WHERE EXACTLY DO I SAY THAT???

I said 13 aircraft were shot down, I never said in air to air combat, actually these were the result of SAMs, AAA AND A2A Combat.

Well in adding up the tallies of air-to-air victories that were confirmed that I can find, the overall kill ratio of the IDF/AF versus the SyAF is about 5.4 to 1. That's pretty one-sided I'd say....

well what do you expect if you launch 4 AA-2s at a Phantom and it still flies after taking two hits ... how frustorated would you feel when you don't even have a gun to finish her off???

1948

1 to 1 (yay they're even..... )

is that a bad thing??? .

1967

5.3 to 1

what's that??? depending on what numbers? latest research brought up gun camera proven kills for THREE adetional Mysters from 67 do you know that?.

pre-1973 (i.e. War of Attrition and any victories up until the Yom Kippur War)

12 to 1

once again you are NOT using numbers but ratios, I guess that was my mistake I should've made my demand clearer, numbers + ratios.

1973 (Yom Kippur War)

1.5 to 1

how bad is that? doesn't it say something about Syrian pilots' skills regardless of their INFERIOR equipment??? .

pre-1982

3 to 1

aha !!!

1982

93 to 0

quite impressive ha and the source should be very valid, especially that out of 85 lost Syrian aircraft, 4 were freindly fire and some 15 were lost to Israeli air defenses, not to mention 2 accidents.

and the Israeli aircraft that were shot down including a lovely Phantom that was confirmed by US defense department as shot down in A2A combat are nill in your tally too, must have been imagined by your own defense department eyh.

post-1982

6 to 0

So now tell me......how is it that IDF/AF pilots are NOT superior?

you tell me how they are, have they ever been put in MiG-21s againist MiG-21s before??? not to mention againist F-15s ... no ... I didn't think so .

[Srbin]

anyways to my original question, Kfadrat were these claimed F-16s sopposidely destroyed by R-23?

[PhantomII]

So all of a sudden everything I've ever read, heard, or seen was compeltely wrong and the IDF/AF did lose a plane in A2A combat in the 1982 conflict?

Give me a break......

I've never seen any true accounts of this supposed Phantom loss in air-to-air combat.

And the technological advantage hasn't always been with the IDF/AF (since this seems to be your explanation for the reasons that Syrian pilots have generally been wiped out on most occasions....), the MiG-21 compares very favorably with the Mirage III, and the MIG-17 compares every well with the Mystere and Super Mystere.

And I don't believe I've ever heard you mention that you felt the MiG-21 was all that much inferior compared to the F-4 Phantom........are you changing your argument all of a sudden?

If IDF/AF pilots had used Soviet equipment I believe they'd still have dominated their Syrian counterparts, but I guess that's a moot point and all we have to go by is what has actually happened, and that is the IDF/AF dominating all Arab air forces in various conflicts throughout the years.

The 1973 war? Seeing as Israel was attacked on two different fronts at the very same time, I'd say they did quite well in responding to a situation in which the Arabs had the advantage from the beginning....

The IDF/AF was able to fight back and ultimately win not only the air and ground wars, but to push back the agressors (namely Syria and Egypt but others such as Iraq included as well).

Compare that to the 1967 war when the IDF/AF had the advantage and the Arabs scored very few air-to-air victories. Unlike the IDF/AF in 1973, they weren't able to take back the skies from the agressors (in this case the IDF/AF).

I can understand your hatred of the Israeli's possibly clouding your judgement as to who has the better trained flight crews, but be realistic.

The idea that Syrian pilots are as a whole better than or even equal to their IDF/AF counterparts is just ridiculous and you know it!

Perhaps there are a few Syrian pilots that are the equal of their IDF/AF counterparts, but as whole, their training and skills are (and always have been) a joke.

[sharmaji]

Phantom, Kdrafat is better left to his own dellusions, the Syrian airforce got wiped out in the 82 war, only a wetdreamer would claim that Israeli pilots were < or equal to Syrian pilots. I still remember reading about the drones the Israelis sent and the Syrian SAMs launched their missiles at them and the Israeli AF came in right behind and destroyed the SAMs. Even last year, Israeli planes flew over Bashar's palace and kdrafat is talking about the Syrian airforce. Soviets were idiots? don't make me laugh kdrafat!

[kfadrat]

ok, now I have to convince two kids not to put words in my mouth and that their primary aviation history education was wrong, may be I'm not to be trusted - in your sick kiddy minds - in this matter but why don't you ask people like Arthur, Tom, Steve or SOC about this, may be they could teach yah kids a few lessons.

[kfadrat]

Originally Posted by Srbin

anyways to my original question, Kfadrat were these claimed F-16s sopposidely destroyed by R-23?

two of them were, the third an R-60, but knowing that ONLY one kill is confirmed so far I really can't answer your question in a desirable way.

may be the American or the Indian kids can once they are done putting words in my mouth.

[PhantomII]

Kids?

How old are you exactly?

If I'm not mistaken you said you're 26, which means you aren't that much older than I am.

Apparently the years in age you have over me automatically make you a more credible source than I.....

And an F-16 was indeed shot down by a Syrian MiG-23??

That's new to me.

So apparently since Kfadrat said so the F-16 is no longer undefeated in air-to-air combat in IDF/AF hands, and there were indeed IDF/AF air-to-air losses in the 1982 conflict........

Well how about we agree to disagree.

You'd never admit to anything that would imply the Syrian Air Force is a joke compared to the IDF/AF, and you'll never convince me of your random claims so I suppose this "debate" is rather pointless for us both.

[kfadrat]

oh my God, you always have 3 years lagg in everything, you are lagging in my age info, you are lagging in your 1982 war data base ... you are the king of lagging dude.


I will not argue any more, you just chose any one of the people I reffered to and ask them ... or do you consider them not to know anything about the war too?.

when exactly was the last time you visited ACIG and read the newly researched data?

[PhantomII]

Okay then you had a typo about your age in the other thread that asked about people's age.

You can't blame me for that....

As far as "newly researched data" the only thing I see is an F-4 lost on 10 June 1982 to a MiG-21, but I've never read a single article or seen any type of evidence that would cause me to believe it actually occurred. The same goes for the supposed Kfir shoot-down.

Until I get some proof I'll assume the two are just your usual Syrian claims....looking at the other claims it's quite easy to believe they are ridiculous. The Syrians claimed they shot down an E-2 Hawkeye for crying out loud!

You expect me to take you seriously when the air force you're defending makes a claim like that?

I understand wild claims happen on both sides, but they are usually in relation to fighters, not AWACS planes! You'd think the IDF/AF would acknowledge losing something as expensive as a Hawkeye.

I think you're just irritated because you have to put up with the fact that the Syrian Air Force, compared to the IDF/AF, is a failure.

[vikasrehman]

AFM published an article on Mig-23 in Oct 2003 issue, according to which Syria is currently operating around 60 floggers of which 40 r highly modified to MLD standard. Russian ML/MLD upgrade pace seems to have increased in the light of 1982 syrian/Israeli air war. As for 1982 conflict, according to Air Enthusiast (July/Aug 2002 issue), syrian floggers played only a secondary role with 10 losses (4 M models and 6 MF models) while their pilots claimed 5 kills (none of which can b confirmed).

[Srbin]

Anyways I am not going to get involved in this as I am largely uninformed about the Israeli-Arab wars. Anyways can someone actually answer my question?

[sharmaji]

I do not see the data, I am sure that kdrafat could enlighten us both here with that data, Arthur,SOC etc are not here, you are, you are claiming it, whydon't you bring it up, it would make for an interesting discussion actually, as for Syrian pilots, I believe that there was a time when even Pakistani pilots were asked to fly for Syria vs Israel, I can only assume that is because of a general lack in numbers of skilled Syrian pilots.

[DeepSpace]

Srbin, check this out. Israeli - Arab wars

[PLA]

I am not here to add flames to this topic but since you are flames about who is superior...

I think when it come to number the Israeli Airforce did a superb job. No doubt. But is it as fair fight? If you are standing in a arena. All you opponents are blinded and you get all the weapons and info... How great is the superb part then... They won indeed. But getting latest weapons and info does make the victory less important... It is like fighting with merkava and
apache against stone throwing kids... The winner is clear but that is all.

About the arabs. They had not the best pilots. They had not the best versions of the available planes. They had no info. They had bad training. And they fought with their heart and not their mind...

Israel won. Let us move on. War is never a nice experience. Just like terrorism.

[DeepSpace]

PLA, why you are always bring it up?
Here we're talking about an F-4, F-16 or a Mirage or who knows against a MiG, not an "Apache against stone throwing".

[PLA]

I just wanted to end he mythical superiority. There is no myth. And that stones. But is shows the differences in approach hence the results.

About Israel. It is there and there is nothing wrong with that. About the government actions... Extremely wrong. Same about the attacks of the other side. Don't get me wrong friend.

[flex297]

Originally Posted by Srbin

Although I never really believed it before, the Russians and the Syrians say they have shot down over 10 F-16s with their Mig-23s but the Israelis and Americans deny it. I mean what chance is there that this has happend where Mig-23s were armed with BVR weapons and F-16s were limited to AIM-9s that this actually happend?

IMHO, it is quite possible if they were using at least MiG-23MF version which is BVR capable.. MiG-23MS would stand little chance with its RP-21 based avionics, even less when driven by Syrian pilot...

But I don't see the reason why a Russian pilot from some Gvardiyskiy Polk (Guardian sqn) with MiG-23MF should not be able to blow an Israeli F-16 out of the sky..

[kfadrat]

PII, you know very well the SyAAF NEVER EVER claimed that E-2C, it was an Ukranian magazine that came up with the claim.

besides, did you read the date on the post related to my age???.

I see you went to ACIG for confirmation and found more info, why not share with us?.

[kfadrat]

Originally Posted by sharmaji

I do not see the data, I am sure that kdrafat could enlighten us both here with that data, Arthur,SOC etc are not here, you are, you are claiming it, whydon't you bring it up,

are you following the logic here??? when I debate something you guys say I'm Syrian so my info isn't correct and when I indicate other people you ask me to debate !!! r u drunk?

it would make for an interesting discussion actually, as for Syrian pilots, I believe that there was a time when even Pakistani pilots were asked to fly for Syria vs Israel, I can only assume that is because of a general lack in numbers of skilled Syrian pilots.

people fly in such situations everywhere, Syrian pilots flew for the Lybian air force for two decades - before Bush Jr bought Qaddafi - North Korean pilot flew for Egypt, 12 Pakistanis won't make any difference at the front and they were sent as a show of BROTHERHOOD not to save the day, I can mention cases of almost all the AFs around the world sending pilots to fly with friendly AFs one time or an other, you need to take logic 101 once again.

[PLA]

Srbin. Neither were the US happy about the fact that they had lost F117 in Bosnia or Apaches in Irac. These things happen and it is bad for the PR. So nothing strange in denying bad results. And as Flex pointed out. An advanced plane is surely very comfortable but it is not a guarantee... Is that a very difficult logic? I don't think so. About the Arab forces. They did not have the best versions of the planes at that time. If you take some time to look after the article in AFM (a few months ago) about mig23 or mig27 you will see that I made the correct assumptions. The Russian gave not the most advanced verions to the arabs. Case closed.