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#31
23rd March 2004, 18:39
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#32
23rd March 2004, 19:19
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Interesting... I never understood why peruvians didnt use their powerful M2000 on the conflict . But probably French may have denied assistance to Equator as well but they used their Mirrage F1
exactly, the only diference was on who prepared for and who didnt. if there was the slightest suspicion of what was comming the results would have been much different. and yes the show was at the miraflores district beach. here goes the last one of my collection.  Camaro
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#33
23rd March 2004, 19:58
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m.ileduets,
Some say that is the best upgrade for an F-5, to keep the jet flying for another 15 years. There are rumours, but, the probability is to purchase BVR missiles from Israel. But, the missiles dependes who will be the FX winner. In case of the SU-35 or JAS-39 wins, the possibility is the Derby. But, if the M2000-5Br wins, the MICA could be adopted to the fleet of F-5s. One thing that I forgot to mention, the new F-5 will be fully NVG compatible. The war between Peru and Ecuador, the aircraft used direct in combat was the Mirage F1 and Kfir from Ecuador and A-37 and SU-22 from Peru. The Ecuadorian Mirages shot-down two SU-22s over Cenepa Valley and a Kfir shot an A-37. One ecuadorian Kfir was shot down by a SAM missile. As far as I read, Peru only used its Mirages 2000 on CAP missions to persuade the ecuatorians. At the time of the war they are operating with full ammo on its DEFA cannons as well as two Magic AAM missile for close combat. But, probably the Peruvians realized that did not worth sending the M2000s to combat directly with the F1s to avoid unnecessary losses. It would be very interesting to see a dogfight between F1s and M2000s Regards, Just a nice picture from an flight of AMX - "ADELPHI"
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#34
23rd March 2004, 20:22
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wasn't it this event, where one Peruvian Su-22 and an AT-37, or conceivably two Su-22, were shot down with Magic II of two Ecuadorian Mirage F.1, themselves tracked then while desengaging by Peruvian Mirage 2000 ?
well, it seems Dassault didn't make advertising and noise about it, and it is comprehensible quite interesting story though
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#35
23rd March 2004, 20:30
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As far as I read, Peru only used its Mirages 2000 on CAP missions to persuade the ecuatorians. At the time of the war they are operating with full ammo on its DEFA cannons as well as two Magic AAM missile for close combat. But, probably the Peruvians realized that did not worth sending the M2000s to combat directly with the F1s to avoid unnecessary losses.
good point but it just doesnt make any sense to send Sukhois and A-37 without any escort just for that reason, one thing is for sure, the french turned their backs on them.  Camaro
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#36
23rd March 2004, 20:40
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stated on ACIG :
"While disengaging, both FAE Mirages have got warnings on their RWRs that they were tracked by Peruvian Mirage 2000Ps, thus they distanced away" so ...
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#37
23rd March 2004, 20:48
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so...
that was it, painting them with the RDM radar was one thing, atacking them was another, to me if the ecuatorians had face them, they'd had M2k's also on their kills record, so the gambling worked for the peruvians as the ecuatorians never took the chance and never came to face them. pretty simple (and risky i'd say) Camaro.
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#38
23rd March 2004, 21:27
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If the public opinion won't change much here in Switzerland in the near future, we might end up with a similar solution, as the necessity for a F-5 replacement is not seen by a majority. Just retiring them is more likely, but it would make me feel slightly uneasy to rely entirely on the F/A-18. There was a spare part shortage issue at one point and a fleet grounding, too. By the way: how to you assess the impact of the upgrade on its AtoG capabilities? The radar should make it more capable there. The Swiss AF wants to regain this asset. The Brazil and Singapore upgrades make the good old Tiger look quite attractive again. The main limitation for the F-5 (apart from the age of the airframe) seems to be the fact that it's a bit underpowered for today's standard. That's why I liked the Tigershark prototype. A shame it didn't go into production. Are there no attempts made to build in different engines?
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#39
23rd March 2004, 22:52
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Camaro, amazing picture sequence on the Mi-8/Blowpipe hit. Sad that you see it frantically firing off flares before the final hit. No survivors, I guess, since it's impossible to bail out.
Was this part of the Equadorian border war or a COIN operation against the Shining Path?
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#40
23rd March 2004, 23:28
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on the ground below fierce and bloody battles were fought between the 2 armies, basically comando jungle warfare, real nasty. Camaro. 
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#41
24th March 2004, 00:25
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m.ileduets
You are telling that the fleet of F/A-18s are suffering shortage of spare parts? It is a surprise for me. I think it is valid and affordable to upgrade the fleet of Swiss F5s to back up the Hornets for so long. I read that the F5s are in good shape, with a lot of hours left in the airframes. For us, the upgrade of the F5 was an incredibly opportunity. Brazilian AF is operating the type for about 30 years, we have gained a lot of experience on this jet. The price involved on the upgrade is very affordable, US$ 280 million for 46 jets. It will be a completely new jet. But the good part (I mentioned this before) is the similarity, in avionics, between the entire combat fleet. I don't think that the E/F model are underpowered. The tigershark was offered to Brazil in the 80's, but, was not accepted. Regards,
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#42
24th March 2004, 00:35
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Camaro,
I agree, but, in fact there were M2000s on CAP stations. Why they not took actions against the F1s and Kfirs, to protect the SU-22s and the A-37s, is a mystery. Or a great opportunity missed by the Peruvians or a wise decision taken by them? As you said, painting them is one thing, attack and destroy in another, and completely different, thing. The F1s from Ecuador brought down the two SU-22s and an Ecuadorian Kfir brought down an A-37. The Ecuadorian pilots were Mirage F1s - Capt. Uscategui and Maj. Banderas Kfir - Capt. da Matta I think the name of the Peruvian pilots were not released. Regards, 
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#43
24th March 2004, 03:56
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this is my first post here  Well, I guess you don´t mind if I add a little correction: this sequence is part of a video refered to the MI-25 shot down, happened in feb´07 1995 when this machine (FAP-695) tripulated by Colonel Marco Antonio Schenone Oliva, Captain Raúl Vera Collahuazo and SOTco.3 Erick Gilberto Diaz Cabrel was hitted by ecuadorian AA fire: a mix of 37 or 23 mm and the fatal missile (may be an IGLA or a HN-5).. in some sites, is stated that this images refer to the shot down of a MI-8 helo, but in july 1996 in the independence parade in Lima. this video was transmited and was officially stated that belongs to the shot down of the MI-25... Regards from Caracas Alberto.-
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#44
24th March 2004, 04:01
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Well, The identities of the Su-22´s pilots are: Comandant (colonel??) Victor Maldonado Begazo and the Major Enrique Caballero Orrego And for the A-37B pilot: Comandant (colonel??) Hilario Valladares regards.... Alberto.-
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#45
24th March 2004, 07:06
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The Swiss also decided against the Tigershark in the 90ies and chose the Hornet instead. I still like the idea of a more powerfull Tiger variant.
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#46
24th March 2004, 15:17
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Alberto,
Tks for the info. By the way, what the status of the Venezuelan F-16s fleet? Do you know if your government will send them to participate in Cruzex here in Brazil at the end of this year? It will be great to see them here. Regards, 
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#47
24th March 2004, 15:24
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m.ileduets,
Regarding the Swiss F-18s, I fully agree with you. Right now, they are trying to sell the new Super Hornet, but, probably, will face, in near future, the same problem that happened with your AF. I got your point, but, the Mirage and the Draken are different categories of fighters, they are larger than the F5 and has more powerful engines (Mach2+). We use them for at least 30 years and they are simply loved by their pilots and a star at airshows down here. Its noise and shape are unforgettable. Regards,
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#48
24th March 2004, 15:49
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As to different categories: Yes, the Mirage is indeed a little bigger. But if you look at recent small jets like the T-50, the Yak 135 or the Aermacchi 345 you will notice that they achieve a thrust/ weight ratio around or bigger than 1:1. I'd wish the Tiger could compete with these. It's not all a matter of size
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#49
24th March 2004, 17:04
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m.ileduets,
The Super Hornet was offered in the very beginning but drop off the competition very quickly due to the tremendous cost involved. I agree, but, the aircrafts that you have mentioned are trainers/LIFT jets. I think the F5 is a different category and also a 70's technology, different concept, we cannot compare. The F5 was built as an affordable fighter to nations that are not wealthy enough to have modern fighters. Regards,
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#50
24th March 2004, 17:13
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A question to the brazilian guys which I would appreciate if you could answer, what's the latest status on the fighter tender in Brazil? (When are they going to decide which aircraft to buy, and how goes the word in Brazil that is.)
My 2 cents would be: 1. Su-35 Pro: A non-american fighter with great range and performance. Con: Spares, offsets and quality. 2. Mirage 2000Br Pro: A proven great fighter. Con: Expensive, in the end of it's lifecycle. 3. Gripen Pro: Good performance, advanced electronics (datalink etc.) Con: A bit short legged, especially compared to Su-35. 4. F-16 Pro: A proven fighter with lots of users all over the world. Con: In the end of it's lifecycle. Gripen ought to be the darkhorse here, with a possibility to knock down the Mirage to third place. And yes, I would love to see the Gripen in Brazilian AF marks. regards, Castor
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#51
24th March 2004, 17:18
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 On closer look, the target helo does have more of the slimmer shape of the Hind than the Mi-8. Equador has HN-5s? I doubt that China can export military equipment to South America without getting a lot of attention from the US (especially things like MANPADs).
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#52
24th March 2004, 19:03
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no way jose...
thats a Mi-8 being shot down, the fact that the news said something doesnt mean its true, its an Mi-8, its the one higher (above the mountain line) look at the last pic, where the explosion begins and then the smoke trail going down, i just check with windows photo wiewer and zooming in you can see clearly its a Mi-8. poor *******s anyway. Camaro.
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#53
24th March 2004, 20:17
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Okay, I made a comparision but it's too hard to tell. What do you think?
The top left picture (magnified) was of the helo going down. The lower right is of the one above the mountain line.
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#54
24th March 2004, 20:19
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Hmmm, maybe the one above the mountain line looks closer to a Mi-8.
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#55
24th March 2004, 21:02
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Castor,
the situation will be decided until the end of this month. The three favourites are the SU-35, Mirage 2000-5 and JAS-39 Gripen. The F-16 and Mig-29 have very few chances. the Mig-29 is a totally outdated aircraft, problems to obtain spare parts, its performance has been questioned a lot. The F-16 is a formidable airplane but the US government refuse to transfer technology and one of the prime reasons of this contest for the Brazilian government is the irrestrit transfer of technology. Dassault associated with Embraer to market very agressively the Mirage 2000-5. The jet offered to Brazil has the latest avionics of the dash-5 and the Rafale and if wins, it will be built here in Brazil at Embraer's new plant. There are some supporters here, but, personnaly I don't think that it will be the winner. The french AF operates a few 2000-5 (around 37) is scheduled to retire from service in a near future to be replaced by Rafale. Dassault has promised fully transfer of technology BAe/SAAB associated with VEM, which is a maintenance company owned by VARIG (Major Brazilian Airline) to market the jet here. It is much appreciated by a group of pilots, and a lot of supporters. It is the only real fourth generation fighter in the contest. There is a big chance to win the contest as the Swedish government promised full access and transfer of technology. I think that the advantage that Gripen has over the others is the fact that the new FX will replace also the upgraded F5 in year 2020 and the Gripen, with its advanced techonology, is better suited to equip FAB for long years if you consider techonology and cost. The Russians associated with Avibrás, a local arms company. It is also very much appreciated by the pilots and also has a lot of supporters. I think is ideal if you consider the size of the country. It has a tremendous range, can carry a enormous load of missiles and also will give full access to its technology. According to the press and specialists is the favourite. Also an advantage for the Flanker is the recent agreement between Brazil and Russia to rebuilt Alcantara space station and to cooperate in future space launchings from there (transfer of technology). Anyway, nothing has been decided yet and the chance to see a Gripen in full Brazilian marks (a very nice camo to say at least) is high. Regards,
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#56
24th March 2004, 21:35
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A-29...may the best win
personally i like the Suko, for the brazilian geography and seems that FAB likes it as well. with france will be better doing Rafale than M2k as you said. Mig-29 is outdated yes unless new hi-tech are built, wich i doubt, f-16...nice but the yanks are going to force you into something you may dont like (like israel and the apg-68v9) who knows. golden dragon, just by looking at the tailboom is clearly a Mi-8, the tailboom on the Mi-25 is much fatter. hola alberto. about the video...is it anywhere on the net? i've got to have it, anyway is a Mi-8 as i said. thanks beto. Camaro.
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#57
24th March 2004, 21:48
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Mirage 2000 is probably the last plane I would pick even under Mig-29 or F-16.
First Dassault stacked up the price for the M2KBR of 70mn, and for a naked Mirage. It's capabilities do not exactly match Gripen's yet it's more expensive(Gripen is only 50mn) not to mention Gripen is a newer airframe, better design and a bit cheaper to maintain. Mirage 2000 doesn't even come close to Su-35 in anything, it's twice as more expensive, it's range or payload are NOWHERE near of teh Super Flanker and it's capabilties are **** compared to it. I see a real competition between Gripen and Su-35, the pros of the Gripen over teh Su-35 is that it's easier to maintain and fly and a newer airframe but the Su-35 still is better in A2A and comes with a big variety of A2G ordinance, has a much bigger range, something necessary for Brazil, is favoured by FAB and is much much cheaper but in the future Gripen will save a lot of money by smaller operating costs, so that should make them similar in price with Gripen probably being cheaper. One of the biggest cons of Gripen is that it has alot of American parts in it, and would it's BVR capabilities would be questioned, meanwhile the Su-35 would offer outstanding A2A capabilities along with good anti ship capabilities(with Yakhnot-M, would Brazil get that?) and very good A2G capabilities since it can carry some really good weapons, lots of them across longer ranges. Malandrao, when will the winner be decided?
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#59
25th March 2004, 08:01
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well, I can tell you than the French AF would still have in 2015 at least 160 Mirage 2000, including 30 Mirage 2000-5F
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#60
25th March 2004, 12:36
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Hi A-29,
If Flanker wins, our F-5EM/FM will use R-77 or R-27. I saw the "Top Secret" official Sukhoi offer Regards, Adelphi m.ileduets, Some say that is the best upgrade for an F-5, to keep the jet flying for another 15 years. There are rumours, but, the probability is to purchase BVR missiles from Israel. But, the missiles dependes who will be the FX winner. In case of the SU-35 or JAS-39 wins, the possibility is the Derby. But, if the M2000-5Br wins, the MICA could be adopted to the fleet of F-5s. One thing that I forgot to mention, the new F-5 will be fully NVG compatible. The war between Peru and Ecuador, the aircraft used direct in combat was the Mirage F1 and Kfir from Ecuador and A-37 and SU-22 from Peru. The Ecuadorian Mirages shot-down two SU-22s over Cenepa Valley and a Kfir shot an A-37. One ecuadorian Kfir was shot down by a SAM missile. As far as I read, Peru only used its Mirages 2000 on CAP missions to persuade the ecuatorians. At the time of the war they are operating with full ammo on its DEFA cannons as well as two Magic AAM missile for close combat. But, probably the Peruvians realized that did not worth sending the M2000s to combat directly with the F1s to avoid unnecessary losses. It would be very interesting to see a dogfight between F1s and M2000s Regards, Just a nice picture from an flight of AMX - "ADELPHI
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