MMRCA News and Discussion III

[swerve]

Originally Posted by Austin

...If $20 million for Mirage upgrade was possible resulting in cost saving of ~ a billion dollar , MOD would have gone for it by now.....

You've ignored the fact that an upgrade of similar scope, involving a version of the same radar, has been done to the Mirage F.1 by Dassault for a third of the price quoted to India for the M2K. A higher price is to be expected, but three times?

[Insig]

It makes me curious how much Maroc paid for the "rafale" upgrade of their Mirage F1... Can't be that huge difference. On the other hand... If you put everything what the Rafale has in a Mirage 2000 and expect to pay a few cents then it should be something logical. You cannot get the latest for less cause you put it in an old plane. I think it is pretty obvious that Dassault is not much intrested in running into upgrading troubles or TOT side effects while offering Rafale. And even that might be a big problem reminding that India has lots of problems with getting Hawk assembled in India.

p.s. These are not flames but purely facts based on what is posted on this forum or published in Indian newspapers. And is is a bit silly to have to add this cause in a forum one should expect some critical notes.

[Austin]

Originally Posted by swerve

You've ignored the fact that an upgrade of similar scope, involving a version of the same radar, has been done to the Mirage F.1 by Dassault for a third of the price quoted to India for the M2K. A higher price is to be expected, but three times?

We do not know the actual scope of the upgrade , what MOD is looking for and what it wants , the finer deep details will be classified and there in lies the devil.

Surely this is not a patch upgrade , but a complete upgrade which will keep it fighting fit for next ~ 25 years.

I can easily say a 60 odd Mig-29 upgrade costed the mod ~ $ 1 billion , but then comparision is futile , if one does not know what is going inside.

I am sure IAF would want to give M2K a top of line upgrade as it has served them very well.

[Rajan]

Originally Posted by Austin

If $20 million for Mirage upgrade was possible resulting in cost saving of ~ a billion dollar , MOD would have gone for it by now.
Like it or not OEM will be involved in some way for a major upgrade.

Thats it. MoD is ready to pay but this Dassualt that is muddling the deal.

I am agree with you that OEM is the best choice for an upgrade. They cannot just label an unexpected price. $ 41 million for an Mirage-2000 is too much. With some more we can get a brand new MKI.

[swerve]

Originally Posted by Austin

We do not know the actual scope of the upgrade , what MOD is looking for and what it wants , the finer deep details will be classified and there in lies the devil.

Surely this is not a patch upgrade , but a complete upgrade which will keep it fighting fit for next ~ 25 years.

I can easily say a 60 odd Mig-29 upgrade costed the mod ~ $ 1 billion , but then comparision is futile , if one does not know what is going inside.

I am sure IAF would want to give M2K a top of line upgrade as it has served them very well.

Yes, but please take a look at the Mirage F.1 upgrade for Morocco. It is not a "patch" upgrade, but a nearly complete one. It gives the F.1 a complete new avionics suite. The radar is a scaled-down (to fit the small Mirage F.1 nose) version of that offered to India for the M2K upgrade. It includes integration of Mica, AASM, Damocles & LGBs, etc., a new glass cockpit, the works. It is a top of line upgrade.

Now, I ask again, why should a similar upgrade for the Mirage 2000 cost three times as much?

[HAL9000]

What do this Indian Mirage 2000 upgrade include ? What are they getting ?

[Austin]

Originally Posted by swerve

Yes, but please take a look at the Mirage F.1 upgrade for Morocco. It is not a "patch" upgrade, but a nearly complete one. It gives the F.1 a complete new avionics suite. The radar is a scaled-down (to fit the small Mirage F.1 nose) version of that offered to India for the M2K upgrade. It includes integration of Mica, AASM, Damocles & LGBs, etc., a new glass cockpit, the works. It is a top of line upgrade.

Now, I ask again, why should a similar upgrade for the Mirage 2000 cost three times as much?

As I have mentioned comparision is futile.

At ~ $2 billion dollar for Mirage 2K it surely is expensive , you can perhaps get 1 half squad of new mig-29 or F-16 with that amount.

But in the absence if information me and you can just speculate , could be Full TOT cost for the upgrade ? Could include 100's of MICA,A2G,Standoff weapons ? Could include hard wiring it for Nuclear Delivery and M2K is still the weapons of choice there.

So it could be a one of these a combination of these or all of those , we do not know. If the MOD is willing to pay that high amount and Dassult is asking for more , then this major upgrade is a gold plated one with hidden potential.

Compare that to ~ $1 Billion upgrade for 60 plus Mig-29 , which even includes a new Series 3 engine.

But if Dassault insists ,it has more to loose here since Rafale is a top contender for MMRCA

[Austin]

Originally Posted by HAL9000

What do this Indian Mirage 2000 upgrade include ? What are they getting ?

On face of it is converting M2K to M2K-5 standards.

[abrahavt]

Originally Posted by HAL9000

What do this Indian Mirage 2000 upgrade include ? What are they getting ?

Not sure if any weapons are included in the upgrade but it definitely does not include an engine upgrade. Think it is primarily a radar and avionics suite upgrade. $41 mill seems a steep price for a radar and avionics upgrafe. Not a good omen for future upgrades of the Rafale if India decides to go for it. My vote has shifted from the Rafale to the Typhoon or Hornet (if the US is agreeable on TOT and software codes which I doubt). The typhoon would be a good choice as it includes full TOT and the engine can be used with the LCA.

[uss novice]

Quote:
Originally Posted by swerve View Post
Yes, but please take a look at the Mirage F.1 upgrade for Morocco. It is not a "patch" upgrade, but a nearly complete one. It gives the F.1 a complete new avionics suite. The radar is a scaled-down (to fit the small Mirage F.1 nose) version of that offered to India for the M2K upgrade. It includes integration of Mica, AASM, Damocles & LGBs, etc., a new glass cockpit, the works. It is a top of line upgrade.

Now, I ask again, why should a similar upgrade for the Mirage 2000 cost three times as much?
As I have mentioned comparision is futile.

At ~ $2 billion dollar for Mirage 2K it surely is expensive , you can perhaps get 1 half squad of new mig-29 or F-16 with that amount.

But in the absence if information me and you can just speculate , could be Full TOT cost for the upgrade ? Could include 100's of MICA,A2G,Standoff weapons ? Could include hard wiring it for Nuclear Delivery and M2K is still the weapons of choice there.

Thanks to ShyamD @ BR and Intelligence Online via google,
It sems there is word going around that the haggling between india and dassault may include the possibility of foregoing the upgrade for the lot of UAE Mirage 2000-5/9s. Possibly exchange existent IAF M2ks (hopefully not the new ones) for the 65 odd uAE birds.

IIRC, the UAE lot has some 30 odd new builds (2003?) adn the rest are 89-90s vintage. No wonder there is a lot of tijme being taken - lots of aspects to such a deal. Plus the selection of weapons and customization if requested.

Could mean that India gets 80 odd M2k5/9s + weapons for about $ 2 billion + 40 IAF M2ks. Wouldn't be too bad then.

USS.

[swerve]

It'd be interesting to know what the AdlA, Greece, & UAE paid for their upgrades of older Mirage 2000s to -5.

[Snow Monkey]

Originally Posted by uss novice

IIRC, the UAE lot has some 30 odd new builds (2003?) adn the rest are 89-90s vintage. No wonder there is a lot of tijme being taken - lots of aspects to such a deal. Plus the selection of weapons and customization if requested.

Could mean that India gets 80 odd M2k5/9s + weapons for about $ 2 billion + 40 IAF M2ks. Wouldn't be too bad then.

Hm.

Originally Posted by swerve

It'd be interesting to know what the AdlA, Greece, & UAE paid for their upgrades of older Mirage 2000s to -5.

This would be interesting to know also - Though I suspect India wants to integrate a data-link into their M2K's (their own indigenous/ Link16?) and that probably wasn't included in Morocco's F1 upgrade (nor other -5's). Integrating a unique Indian datalink to the -9 avionics (I don't see the sense in upgrading only to -5 if you're already replacing the avionics) would obviously be more one-off work. The new radar for M2K's may well require more cooling upgrades than the "equivalent tech, but smaller" radar in an upgraded F1 - those types of things don't scale linearly in many cases.

The reactions of "OMG this is so expensive, we could get XYZ for same price, Dassault MUST be *******s so we should never buy Rafale" are overblown. Dassault MAY be over-charging, but plenty of upgrades ARE simply not cost-effective vs. new platforms and if that's the case you can't blame Dassault for quoting their actual cost plus a reasonable profit. I suspect some sort of deal with the UAE -9's would make alot more sense than a direct upgrade to India's current M2K's. The combined fleet would provide a source of spares for the operating -9's (i.e. from older frames retired earlier).

[coldfire2005]

Rotating E-Scan Radar May Push Eurofighter Exports

[Rajan]

http://www.upiasia.com/Security/2009...chnology/2484/

The U.S. lead in defense electronics may also swing the Indian Air Force’s tender for the US$11 billion-plus multirole medium-range combat aircraft in their favor. The IAF has repeatedly said that the Avionics Suite of the Aircraft – which is seen in the Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, UAC’s Mig-35, SAAB Gripen, Lockheed Martin F-16 and the Boeing F-18 aircraft – will be a key determinant in the final selection.

To be considered favorably, the fighter’s nose radar should be active electronically scanned array, the IAF says. Not surprisingly, the United States is a world leader in this technology, and its F-16 and F-18 aircraft field the mature AESA technology.

While AESA technology would be a key consideration in the final selection of a fighter plane for India, the degree to which technology transfer is agreed upon will be just as important. The Indians have made it clear throughout the aircraft selection process that the best technology may not necessarily win unless it is ready to be transferred in its Entirety. This is where U.S. firms have a handicap.

In the past, the U.S. government has refused to share source code for radar even with close allies like the United Kingdom. However, with the Indo-U.S. nuclear deal in place and an End User Monitoring Agreement almost sown up, it seems that the United States could be willing to give up its old habits for the sake of the Indian market and the ensuing regional geopolitics.

[Rajan]

Originally Posted by coldfire2005

Rotating E-Scan Radar May Push Eurofighter Exports

Thats cool. Is there any official data-sheet present for the CAESAR?

EFT was always my fovourite along with F-18SH. But now I prefer EFT more. If it fulfills the multi-role capabilities specified by the IAF than it has the best chance to win considering every aspect like technology, weapons, capability, ToT, politics and sanction. India never had any major problem w.r.t. aircraft systems of EADS countries. We had deals for Jaguar, Hawk and Dornier aircrafts in past with ToT.

[Abhimanyu]

Originally Posted by Austin

All that sounds nice and great on a forum and on paper.

But when you look at the indigenous content of Tejas Mk1 and even the phoren content of Mk2 , it will be a long time if ever we will get out of woods.

See, Tejas has significant indigenous content, and even the very limited imported content is not sanctionable, and readily available also.

I think in view, Tejas with 15% imported content is more beneficial to the IAF than a Mirage-2000 with 100% imported content, contracts, "price-haggling", sanctions, etc.

[Austin]

Originally Posted by Abhimanyu

See, Tejas has significant indigenous content, and even the very limited imported content is not sanctionable, and readily available also.

I think in view, Tejas with 15% imported content is more beneficial to the IAF than a Mirage-2000 with 100% imported content, contracts, "price-haggling", sanctions, etc.

Like the Tejas Mk1 with GE engines and Mk2 with the proposed GE/EJ engine ?

M2K was never sanctioned even during 1998 test , but Tejas ended up getting sanctioned and delayed due to significant American component.

[swerve]

Originally Posted by coldfire2005

Rotating E-Scan Radar May Push Eurofighter Exports

This swash-plate mounting for the AESA array has already been adopted for Gripen NG - the Selex/Saab Vixen 1000ES- http://www.selex-sas.com/SelexGalile...adar/index.sdo





Description (in Portuguese), including illustrations of increased field of view -
http://www.defesanet.com.br/fx2/gripen_aesa.htm

The Captor-E for Eurofighter would need a larger version of the same hardware.

[Abhimanyu]

Originally Posted by Austin

Like the Tejas Mk1 with GE engines and Mk2 with the proposed GE/EJ engine ?

M2K was never sanctioned even during 1998 test , but Tejas ended up getting sanctioned and delayed due to significant American component.

See, the sanctions were placed for engines, but the "crippling" portion of the sanctions were the denial of integration and testing of the FBW laws at Lockheed Martin's facilities. This was completed indigenously, and now ADA is totally independent of any foreign entity for this technology.

As far as engines are concerned, they are still the "preserve" of western nations. It may be noted that even the much "touted" Chinese J-10 and FC-1 fighters still rely on Russian engines, because their indigenous engines have failed so far.

I think that the engine contract for the Tejas Mk.2 shall be awarded to EADs only, because of their consultancy contract on Tejas.

[Type59]

Originally Posted by Abhimanyu

See, the sanctions were placed for engines, but the "crippling" portion of the sanctions were the denial of integration and testing of the FBW laws at Lockheed Martin's facilities. This was completed indigenously, and now ADA is totally independent of any foreign entity for this technology.

As far as engines are concerned, they are still the "preserve" of western nations. It may be noted that even the much "touted" Chinese J-10 and FC-1 fighters still rely on Russian engines, because their indigenous engines have failed so far.

I think that the engine contract for the Tejas Mk.2 shall be awarded to EADs only, because of their consultancy contract on Tejas.

Way to spin it, the engines are in development.

[glitter]

Originally Posted by swerve

You've ignored the fact that an upgrade of similar scope, involving a version of the same radar, has been done to the Mirage F.1 by Dassault for a third of the price quoted to India for the M2K. A higher price is to be expected, but three times?

The radar fitted inside Maroccan Mirage is the RC-400 (called for marketing reason RDY-3), a lighter and less powerful RDY.
I suppose IAF wanted RDY-2.

[swerve]

Originally Posted by glitter

The radar fitted inside Maroccan Mirage is the RC-400 (called for marketing reason RDY-3), a lighter and less powerful RDY.
I suppose IAF wanted RDY-2.

Yes, it's lighter & less powerful. But it's unlikely to be only a third of the price. It was developed from the RDY, & IIRC incorporates technology used in the RDY-2.

[Snow Monkey]

Originally Posted by Abhimanyu

I think that the engine contract for the Tejas Mk.2 shall be awarded to EADs only,
because of their consultancy contract on Tejas.

EADS doesn't build engines, you should give credit to the actual producers: Eurojet (RR/ITP/MTU/Avio)

[Abhimanyu]

Originally Posted by Snow Monkey

EADS doesn't build engines, you should give credit to the actual producers: Eurojet (RR/ITP/MTU/Avio)

The above is accurate. However, EADs builds the Eurofighter, which uses the Eurojet engines. Hence, they are familiar with it's technology and functioning.

Thus, the engine contract for Tejas is likely to be awarded to Eurojet only, due to their very close association with EADs.

[Spitfire9]

Originally Posted by Type59

Way to spin it, the engines are in development.

I don't understand what you mean. The EJ 200 engine has been in service for years. I have read that it has potential for a significant increase in thrust, that being a criterion demanded for the design before it was ordered, but no customer has so far asked for a higher thrust version.

Thrust vectoring has also been investigated and demonstrated but again no customer has so far asked for that either. Interestingly, TVC is seen not only as an agility-boosting addition. Benchtest data obtained indicate that TVC would increase supercruise speed and lower fuel consumption if installed on the Typhoon.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...r-typhoon.html

[Insig]

Originally Posted by Abhimanyu

See, the sanctions were placed for engines, but the "crippling" portion of the sanctions were the denial of integration and testing of the FBW laws at Lockheed Martin's facilities. This was completed indigenously, and now ADA is totally independent of any foreign entity for this technology.

As far as engines are concerned, they are still the "preserve" of western nations. It may be noted that even the much "touted" Chinese J-10 and FC-1 fighters still rely on Russian engines, because their indigenous engines have failed so far.

I think that the engine contract for the Tejas Mk.2 shall be awarded to EADs only, because of their consultancy contract on Tejas.

Engines are probably the toughest part to master. But there is not much about "touted" J10 or JF17 about their indegenous engine. They started wit Russian engines and maybe it can be replaced with copies or Chinese engines. What makes it more different then the Kaveri that went from India to Russia to Europe to USA and ow problably will be part of Naval vessels cause it cannot power the delta that is growing weight? We should refrain from degrading other nations while all we see is that everyone ois going through the same development stages.

[Blue Apple]

an upgrade of similar scope, involving a version of the same radar, has been done to the Mirage F.1 by Dassault for a third of the price quoted to India for the M2K. A higher price is to be expected, but three times?

Yes but we're talking India here.

This means that the manufacturer can kiss last 20% of the contract (to be paid after final delivery) goodbye. Because there will always be "something" wrong with the delivered good, no matter what the seller is doing.

Then there is the usual 5-10 years delay in finalizing the contract. But the Indian MoD will insist that the price must remain the same. So it's another 10-30% loss due to inflation.

Then there are the bribes, with dozens of middlemen each taking a few %.

I know I'm a bit harsh but he reality of the matter is that it's simply not commercially viable to quote a "realistic" price in a contract with the Indian government. Dassault is likely simply inflating its offer because it doesn't expect to see half the money agreed upon.

I expect the MMRCA quotes to be astronomical too.

[Insig]

Originally Posted by Blue Apple

Yes but we're talking India here.

This means that the manufacturer can kiss last 20% of the contract (to be paid after final delivery) goodbye. Because there will always be "something" wrong with the delivered good, no matter what the seller is doing.

Then there is the usual 5-10 years delay in finalizing the contract. But the Indian MoD will insist that the price must remain the same. So it's another 10-30% loss due to inflation.

Then there are the bribes, with dozens of middlemen each taking a few %.

I know I'm a bit harsh but he reality of the matter is that it's simply not commercially viable to quote a "realistic" price in a contract with the Indian government. Dassault is likely simply inflating its offer because it doesn't expect to see half the money agreed upon.

I expect the MMRCA quotes to be astronomical too.

Still the French saw Maroc leaving to get F16 block so it was either swallow the Mirage f1 deal or end up with nothing like in Saudi case. But since India is showing the money (11 billion deal) they are just playing their game. Will India throw away M2K upgrade? In the MRCA the Rafale is just a contender so they could lose. Maybe they try to make a better deal if India gets and rafale and M2k?

The problem is that India is willing to pay... It needs the weapons. They went well with MKI and they need something next to the MKI and that surely won't be a outdated cheap plane... The sellers know that. As long as India has no Kaveri the engine manufactures will try to get their best deal. As long as India has no operational LCA or something else this game will stay. Look at Pakistan. When they saw that JF17 went better then expected the Americans offered the F16 again. Tehy would have never sold a BVR if PAF had no PL12 as an option. And they surely do not give it for free. It is a commercial contract and they do receive payments for the war on terror but that is cause they are fighting for the USA (and their own survival). I hope that we understand that getting 30.000 soldiers in Wasiristan is not cheap. Certainly if they have to fight the same opponents as the American which have better arms on the Afghan side...

[ainspiron]

Originally Posted by Insig

Look at Pakistan. When they saw that JF17 went better then expected the Americans offered the F16 again. Tehy would have never sold a BVR if PAF had no PL12 as an option.

US transfer of F-16 has everything to do with WOT and nothing to do with JF-17. America frankly give two hoots about JF-17, Neither they have a magic wand to know how good or out of this world JF-17 is. Its been mentioned that PAF has BVR with its upgraded Mirage, so your point about PL12 also doesn't make sense. Why would PAF get new F-16 but wont get BVR missiles with it.

[over G]

This swash-plate mounting for the AESA array has already been adopted for Gripen NG - the Selex/Saab Vixen 1000ES- http://www.selex-sas.com/SelexGalile...adar/index.sdo

Are you saying it has been already installed in/as a prototype?, it was already tested? or the concept lives just another CAD drawing? or a mock-up?

Not claiming anything, but would be interesting to see the pictures of the real thing