MMRCA news (including the Rafale bid)

[echonine]

Rafale Kicked out of MRCA


"In a shocker, the French Rafael fighter has been knocked off a $ 10 billion contract to provide 126 combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force. The French fighter, which was one of the six contenders for the race, was officially rejected by the Defence Ministry for failing to meet qualitative requirements for the contract.
The news comes as a bit of a shock as the Indian Air Force has been maintaining that all six contenders – the American F 18 and F 16, the Eurofighter Typhoon, Russian MiG 35, Swedish Gripen NG and the French fighter – had met the technical requirements.
However, a senior defence ministry official made is clear on Thursday that Rafael has been rejected at the technical evaluation stage for failing to meet minimum performance requirements that had been detailed in the tender document. The flight trials for the remaining five fighters are now expected to commence within three months, a senior MoD official said.
“They did not meet the requirements and will not proceed to the next stage. We hope to begin trials within three months with the others that have qualified,” a top Defence Ministry official said.
While the French fighter was always considered an underdog in the competition, which has been described as the largest international defence contract in the world, it was been aggressively pushed by the French government. Former President Jacques Chirac and his successor Nichols Sarkozy have been talking about the fighter in all their interactions with India.


Interestingly, a separate contract, valued at close to $ 2 billion, for the upgrade of IAF’s Mirage fighter fleet has also been stuck for several months with India and France stuck in commercial negotiations. While the IAF requires an urgent upgrade, the excessive price being quoted by France for the upgrade of over 50 fighters has been a dampener.
The early elimination of the Rafael too is being attributed by insiders to high costs and failing to respond to technical queries. While the commercial bids were to be opened at a later stage, the cost of the fighter has always been considerably more than most of its competitors.
Insiders also say that the ministry was not very happy with the replies it received on technical queries that had been sent after the French company submitted its technical bid. Sources say that the `half hearted’ replies and failure to provide enough information were factors that were considered in the fighter’s elimination from the second round of evaluations.



The fighter had also been missing from the bi annual Aero India military aircraft exposition that takes place in Bangalore while all its competitors were showcasing their fighters."


http://www.indianexpress.com/news/fr...ighter/447745/

[J-7 Hotdog]

Originally Posted by echonine

Rafale Kicked out of MRCA


"In a shocker, the French Rafael fighter has been knocked off a $ 10 billion contract to provide 126 combat aircraft for the Indian Air Force. The French fighter, which was one of the six contenders for the race, was officially rejected by the Defence Ministry for failing to meet qualitative requirements for the contract.
The news comes as a bit of a shock as the Indian Air Force has been maintaining that all six contenders – the American F 18 and F 16, the Eurofighter Typhoon, Russian MiG 35, Swedish Gripen NG and the French fighter – had met the technical requirements.
However, a senior defence ministry official made is clear on Thursday that Rafael has been rejected at the technical evaluation stage for failing to meet minimum performance requirements that had been detailed in the tender document. The flight trials for the remaining five fighters are now expected to commence within three months, a senior MoD official said.
“They did not meet the requirements and will not proceed to the next stage. We hope to begin trials within three months with the others that have qualified,” a top Defence Ministry official said.
While the French fighter was always considered an underdog in the competition, which has been described as the largest international defence contract in the world, it was been aggressively pushed by the French government. Former President Jacques Chirac and his successor Nichols Sarkozy have been talking about the fighter in all their interactions with India.


Interestingly, a separate contract, valued at close to $ 2 billion, for the upgrade of IAF’s Mirage fighter fleet has also been stuck for several months with India and France stuck in commercial negotiations. While the IAF requires an urgent upgrade, the excessive price being quoted by France for the upgrade of over 50 fighters has been a dampener.
The early elimination of the Rafael too is being attributed by insiders to high costs and failing to respond to technical queries. While the commercial bids were to be opened at a later stage, the cost of the fighter has always been considerably more than most of its competitors.
Insiders also say that the ministry was not very happy with the replies it received on technical queries that had been sent after the French company submitted its technical bid. Sources say that the `half hearted’ replies and failure to provide enough information were factors that were considered in the fighter’s elimination from the second round of evaluations.



The fighter had also been missing from the bi annual Aero India military aircraft exposition that takes place in Bangalore while all its competitors were showcasing their fighters."


http://www.indianexpress.com/news/fr...ighter/447745/

lol welcome to yesterday and the 3 other threads on the same thing

[irtusk]

Originally Posted by J-7 Hotdog

lol welcome to yesterday and the 3 other threads on the same thing

well all the other posts were buried inside other threads (Indian Air Force, Rafale News VI)

this is big enough news that a separate thread could be warranted

that said, the explanations so seem to be:
1. cost
2. French arrogance
3. cost+French arrogance

basically, no one believes the 'failed to meet technical requirements' bit

so it would be hilarious if that was the actual reason . . .

[Jwcook]

The specifications were a set of minimum standards that all had to comply with, I find it hard to see how the Rafale failed the first hurdle, however they may have not responded to the request for information correctly/completly.

It may have been something trivial in the request reply that was overlooked or thought to be unimportant, if that's the case its either incompetence or arrogance.

This does now beg the question what now for the Rafale, there are few competitions where the numbers are high enough to affect production schedules and this seems to be a weak point for the Rafale a small and decreasing production run with limited a user base.

These are not exactly good endorsements to be the first to purchase, will we look back at this point abd say this the end of the Rafale? will the small middle east/SA requirements be won now with this perception? and will those orders be enough if they do choose Rafale to get the program out of its downward spiral?.

Interesting times ahead for the Rafale.

Cheers

[CommanderJB]

It should probably be noted that they said it failed to meet the 'qualitative requirements', which suggests to me that it probably met the quantitative stats parameters they were looking for (moreover, if it hadn't, neither would several other contenders, depending of course on the areas you were looking at). 'Qualitative' suggests that they were unhappy with the contract offer made by Dassault, which is also the impression to be gained from various reports of IAF annoyance at dealings with them. What they were unhappy with in the contract is harder to speculate; perhaps ToT, perhaps cost, perhaps the difficulty in supporting the Rafale and the fairly exclusive equipment set that comes with the aircraft?

[ante_climax]

What they were unhappy with in the contract is harder to speculate; perhaps ToT, perhaps cost, perhaps the difficulty in supporting the Rafale and the fairly exclusive equipment set that comes with the aircraft?

1. ToT - According to Dassault spokespersons they offered 100%

2. Cost - May be a big reason. Typhoon is more expensive but Rafale is bound to have more assorted costs because of the expensive missiles like MICA.

3. Difficulty to support - It will then be applicable to all aircraft bar the MIG 35.

[franc]

Originally Posted by Jwcook

there are few competitions where the numbers are high enough to affect production schedules and this seems to be a weak point for the Rafale a small and decreasing production run with limited a user base.

Yes, but same condition to other fighters such as LCA, JF-17, JAS-39 etc.
Also, I can't see any little future remain to the EF. The MRCA race originally is a game between Russia and US.

[Abhimanyu]

Originally Posted by irtusk

that said, the explanations so seem to be:
1. cost
2. French arrogance
3. cost+French arrogance

Actually "arrogance" here translates to no lobbying, unlike Gripen's SAAB (which opened a public "office") and F-18's Boeing.

Dassault's Vice-President had also publicly criticized IAF's near-nonsensical requirement of the MRCA tender, where on the one hand twin-engined fighter like Rafale was competing with single-engined planes like Gripen and F-16. This may have been seen by the IAF as an attempt to publicly pressurize without lobbying or channeling funds. Even the French article posted earlier, suggested that, and I quote, "Dassault told IAF that if you do not select Rafale, it means you took bribes", end quote.

Thus, because Dassault did not attempt any lobbying -- read : bribes -- and instead resorted to publicly pressurizing the IAF, it was rejected. Now this is being interpreted as the "snooty French attitude" by defence analysts.

These factors may have led the IAF to disqualify Rafale.

Originally Posted by irtusk

basically, no one believes the 'failed to meet technical requirements' bit

so it would be hilarious if that was the actual reason . . .

irtusk, I agree with the above. Evan a "child with a lolly" will Not believe this spin by the IAF.

[Misraji]

The thing is that this news has been out for a couple of days and there is still no official confirmation, from MOD or Dassault.

Isn't that suggestive in itself ??

Originally Posted by Abhimanyu

Dassault's Vice-President had also publicly criticized IAF's near-nonsensical requirement

.... Even the French article posted earlier, suggested that, and I quote, "Dassault told IAF that if you do not select Rafale, it means you took bribes", end quote.

Just about the best documented way to win a client ..... Dassault just made sure that they didn't win this one, didn't they? ....

Regards,
Ashish.

[c-seven]

That's mostly because the Indian MoD is composed of a buch of corrupted retards who pull incompetence to a level never seen before in aviation history.

After the the Mirage 2000 deal ("almost" closed for Dassault), Dassault had already paid a swiming pools to full loads of burocrats from the ceilar to the ceiling.
After that Dassault closed its office in India. Period.

One must understand Dassault mentality. They are a familly business (or at least still have a familly business mentality) and it's their irrevocable right to not work with clowns if they believe they can't deal with such jockers.

They replied to the bid dragging feets (without spending to much time with that jocke) to keep an eye on it in case off but it was clear that they knew from the beginning that they had limited capabilities to compete in this ridiculous farce.

I-e: limited capabilities to deal with retards, they are aviation maker ingeneers, not managers of psychatric hospitals.

I don't know if the indians will choose the best plane, the only sure thing is that they'll choose a company with the best capabilities to deal with a extravagant burocracy.

And Dassault will not waste time and money on something out of its area of competence. The biggest losers are not Dassault. The biggest losers are still in the competition, that's certain...

[Misraji]

^^
Well brother C-seven, I was hoping it would be Rafale too.

I was having a lousy day thinking I would not see Rafale in IAF colours.

But with an attitude like above, I guess I am actually happy that Rafale did not make it. The Ministry of Defence did take the right decision after all.

Thanks for making me feel better.

Regards,
Ashish.

[CommanderJB]

Originally Posted by ante_climax

1. ToT - According to Dassault spokespersons they offered 100%

While that's true, I'm not sure it's quite to the extent of certain other ToT offers. For example, Eurojet are already offering the EJ200 for the Tejas with, I believe, license production in India, whereas I imagine that most parts for the Rafale would still have to come from France. It's not exactly ToT, more production offsets, but being able to service your aircraft using indigenous-produced components is related and would be a boon nonetheless.

Originally Posted by ante_climax

3. Difficulty to support - It will then be applicable to all aircraft bar the MIG 35.

As you said in your second point, the equipment and parts requirements for the Rafale are not very interchangeable with either world users or the rest of the fleet, as the Rafale and everything in it and on it is proudly completely French. Unless they did something spectacular I think that choosing the Rafale would in effect limiting be limiting oneself to one supplier for the entire aircraft and all its related equipment. Even the Russian aircraft offer integration with Israeli and Western systems on demand, and Boeing/LM have shown a willingness to present versions with subsystems tailored specifically to India's choices; did the Rafale ever have that sort of customisation or flexibility? If it did, I apologise for the error, but that wasn't the impression I got.

[c-seven]

Originally Posted by Misraji

Thanks for making me feel better.

Regards,
Ashish.

You're wellcome. Don't hesitate to ask my thought about Indian adm if you want to feel even better...

I'm happy of this development too. Dassault doesn't have the tools nor the keys to deal with such complexity and would have had its wings burnt anyway.

Understand that before the M2000 production line story, Dassault had already "almost" won a Alpha Jet training jet contract long ago.
.... that's why the Indians signed for the Hawk 25 years later!

I don't know with which miracle they managed to sell the 40 M2000 but i'd be curious to learn about the decision process there (not indian worst choice anyway...)

Too bad.

[Devils Advocate]

And you don't think this contest was over before it started? This is just the usual ritual from India to see how long they could drag on the attention of these world players. If true that the Rafale is out simply because the French didn't give the "proper" respect, it only supports this.

[TMor]

Who is incompetent, when one choose not to inform the company directly, but in the place, talk anonymously to Reuters ?

As far as i know, 2 days later, Dassault have no answer from the indian MoD.

Instead of doing it correctly, they just attack Dassault's credibility. How pathetic...

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php...05&c=EUR&s=TOP

Though i never cared about this contract, I side with C-Seven.

"Dassault told IAF that if you do not select Rafale, it means you took bribes"

No, it's not what was said. Not even from Dassault.
The sentence was "if the competition is fair, Rafale will bag the deal".
If Indians (i mean those who are to choose) were fair, they wouldn't feel insulted.

Of course, it's easier to punish than to agree publicly on the contrary.

They feel so guilty that they avoided talking directly to DA.

[ante_climax]

I think that choosing the Rafale would in effect limiting be limiting oneself to one supplier for the entire aircraft and all its related equipment. Even the Russian aircraft offer integration with Israeli and Western systems on demand, and Boeing/LM have shown a willingness to present versions with subsystems tailored specifically to India's choices; did the Rafale ever have that sort of customisation or flexibility? If it did, I apologise for the error, but that wasn't the impression I got.

This is true but what subsystems are those tailored for India's specefic needs. According to the F 16 IN public releases there are two, one is the provision for adding IAFs future ODL (operational data link) and the second being the IAF style refuelling with a refuel probe coming out of the right CFT.

The F 18 E/F already has that because the USN uses a similar system to refuel its fighters. Other than that i have not heard anything about specefic Indian sub-systems or integration with Indian/Isreali missiles.

In the case of the MIG 35 I think it is also marketed pretty much as a finished product. There is already MFDs third party jammers etc. in it. Unlike Inida needing to upgrade the basic SU 30 to fit it needs, there is no such MKIsation needs in the MIG 35 being offered. Since the Russians were reluctant to put Israeli radar in the older MIG 21s, I doubt they would allow an ELTA system on the MIG 35 as many users here expect. But with Russian aircraft its hardly an issue as most weapons in our inventory are already Russian.

Another point is now that the Rafale is out it makes the MIrage 2000 upgrade looks even less worthy. We will be adding new radar and missiles etc during the upgrade. But buying and maintaining a specific stock of expensive french weaponary do not make sesne to me for 50 odd aircraft.

Now for all those criticizing the MoD. Yes I believe they should have told the French before leaking the news to the press. But the criticism at not selecting the Rafale is absurd. If the Super Hornet was eliminated for example many Americans will feel the same away. Six jets were in the Running now five but only one can bag the deal, and no matter which jet is selected there is going to be some controversy. An exception is may be the Gripen NG because i don't see many swedish folks around here.

That this is not the first time Dassault has screwed up a deal should atleast deflect some criticism to the company rather than the Indian MoD.

[Abhimanyu]

Misraji, see Dassualt did not want to go the route of lobbying (now, whether that is "ego" or not is unclear). Hence, to pressurize the IAF, the Vice-President of Dassault publicly criticized the IAF's tender requirement of MRCA, calling it "very simple" and "ambiguous". He warned the IAF to not reject Rafale merely on the price.

IAF, which prefers lobbying from agents, did not quite like this tactic to pressurize. So, it called Dassault's "bluff".

The "lesson" for Dassault is that instead of public criticism, it must also begin lobbying.

Had I been Dassault's VP, I would have opened a lobbying office in Delhi (just like SAAB and Rosoboronexport have done). But simltaneously I would have also continued not just criticizing the IAF, but launched veiled attacks on all it's policies involving Dassault. This would have continued the public pressure + containing the same with lobbying (and bribes).

Dassault's mistake was that it built the pressure by criticizing IAF, but could not contain the same by lobbying. The result : IAF spewed it out.

[jawad]

Indian Rafale Out, MMRCA Trials by August

Rafale proponents previously let known their disappointment that an exhaustive matrix table had been laid out based on a basic minimum performance in the request for proposals, and that there were no bonus points on over-compliance.Field trials once were expected immediately following the Bengaluru air show in mid-February. But since the dates were not announced, Gripen and Rafale did not bring their aircraft to the air show.Earlier, many vendors Aviation Week spoke to said they hoped the down-select would be made before the trials to enable them to be completed this year. Some indicated since the cost of holding the trials exceeded $20 million, it would help in conserving cash in this global economic recession. 'The IAF’s RFP (request for proposal), in the first analysis, in terms of performance, is not extremely demanding. We don’t want a situation where the other three aircraft are compliant with the RFP but we lose out on the price differential,' J.P.H.P. Chabriol, Dassault Aviation's senior vice president for military sales said.'The IAF has to decide whether it wants a heavy aircraft or a light aircraft,' he contended. ‘Quite obviously, there would be a price differential if a single or a twin-engine jet is chosen. If India takes the L-1 (lowest tender) route this would be unfair because we have a good product but this quality comes at a price,’ he maintained.In this context, Chabriol noted that Dassault had made an ‘unsolicited offer’ for selling 40 Rafale aircraft to India, an indication that the company would not be too disappointed if it did not win the larger order.

[CommanderJB]

Originally Posted by ante_climax

This is true but what subsystems are those tailored for India's specefic needs. According to the F 16 IN public releases there are two, one is the provision for adding IAFs future ODL (operational data link) and the second being the IAF style refuelling with a refuel probe coming out of the right CFT.

The F 18 E/F already has that because the USN uses a similar system to refuel its fighters. Other than that i have not heard anything about specefic Indian sub-systems or integration with Indian/Isreali missiles.

While that's true, LM and Boeing's subcontractors have their products used worldwide, and there is a fairly extensive support network for the systems on the Super Viper and Super Hornet. You're still dependent on Boeing and LM's approval of course, just as they would be with Dassault, but in my opinion it's less likely you'll see support problems with them. Call it a gut instinct if you must.

Originally Posted by ante_climax

In the case of the MIG 35 I think it is also marketed pretty much as a finished product. There is already MFDs third party jammers etc. in it. Unlike Inida needing to upgrade the basic SU 30 to fit it needs, there is no such MKIsation needs in the MIG 35 being offered. Since the Russians were reluctant to put Israeli radar in the older MIG 21s, I doubt they would allow an ELTA system on the MIG 35 as many users here expect. But with Russian aircraft its hardly an issue as most weapons in our inventory are already Russian.

Quite the opposite, in fact:

According to MiG Deputy Chief Designer Andrei Karasyov MiG-35 is capable of delivering all present and future weapons, since it has universal open architecture. "We are willing to integrate any system, as the user wants it." MiG officials expect India to ask for Israeli Elta radars, display components from France and weaponry of Russian origin. "We have not frozen the technology specifications," said Fyodorov.

The Russians say they can offer the MiG-35 in a Brahmos-like package to India—transfer technology for manufacture within India, and jointly develop the aircraft further and sell it to third countries. "It is a double jump over the Sukhoi deal, so to speak," said a senior official in Rosoboronexport, Russia’s defence export agency. The Sukhoi-30MKI also has thrust vector technology, but is limited to one direction. The technology installed in MiG-35 would allow 360 degree manoeuvrability. And, though the Sukhoi-MKI was developed jointly, there is no provision for joint marketing in the deal.

As you say it needs less work done to it than the Su-30MK did, but the option is there nonetheless for the IAF to take if it so wishes.

[Misraji]

Well, this will be my last post on the topic for I don't believe I am contributing some technical to the discussion.

What I had pointed out earlier was that baring that one report no-else has report no government official/body has said anything.

Who had attacked Dassaults credibility? A news report with un-named defence officials?? How old are you to believe such crap??

Basically the stand that I am taking is that you guys are basically thinking that you (and Dassault) know what IAF needs better than what IAF does.

You think MOD/IAF is gonna feel guilty about not talking to Dassault??

"if the competition is fair, Rafale will bag the deal".Really??

That is what I was trying to point out C-Seven and now to you.

You think that we Indians are the only ones to loose something. Think again.

@Abhimanyu:

You obviously have proof that lobbying does it for MOD/ IAF.
You obviously have proof about corruption.in the MOD.
You obviously have access to the RFP sent out to manufacturers and (say) a technical report that says Rafale fit the requirements the best.

Please lay it out.

Otherwise it is pretty "obvious" that you are just running a smear campaign against the Indian Armed forces. No better than any one of the Indian defence journalists and their unnamed defence officials.

As I said, my last post on the topic.

Regards,
Ashish.

PS:
@TMOR:

Wanted to say this for sometime. Thanks for all those amazing Rafale photographs. Truly enjoyed them.

And also for the one Rafale photo that you said we would NOT like ...

[Abhimanyu]

Originally Posted by Misraji

Basically the stand that I am taking is that you guys are basically thinking that you (and Dassault) know what IAF needs better than what IAF does.

Nobody claimed the above. But we believe --- and have the right to do so and express the same --- that the reasons the IAF gave to reject Dassault are Not tangible and not convincing at all.

Originally Posted by Misraji

@Abhimanyu:

You obviously have proof that lobbying does it for MOD/ IAF.

SAAB has opened an office in New Delhi. An office for what ? It s not scooters or refrigerators they are distributing. It's not a job agency or marriage bureau. It is for a contract that even the ordinary public can't have details about even through the RTI Act or court inquiry.

Thus, the only purpose is lobbying.

Yes, lobbying does it for MoD/IAF.

Originally Posted by Misraji

You obviously have proof about corruption.in the MOD.

A news report to a similar effect was posted on Bharat Rakshak forums a few days back. Besides, it has been documented by the media how since many years various arms dealers like Abhishek Verma, ex-Navy Admiral Nanda and others have run a multi thousand crore lobbying excercise in New Delhi. Abhishek Verma (accused in the Scorpene scam) also took membership of Bharat Rakshak forum tryng to clarify his position.

These are publicly tainted people, involved in corruption in arms procurement.

Arey baba ! Forget me ! Col. Ajai Shukla had the guts to publicly name in his blog, the serving Army officers in DGMF who are deliberately scuttling the Arjun tank, even though the tank officers and colonels who have actually met the machine have testified to Arjun's hands down superiority against T-90.

Originally Posted by Misraji

You obviously have access to the RFP sent out to manufacturers and (say) a technical report that says Rafale fit the requirements the best.

I have full access to the detailed technical specs of the Rafale, made public by Dassault. I also have access to the technical specs of the other contenders.

These tell me that the Rafale was second to none of the other contenders. Dassault's VP has also claimed the IAF's tender was "not demanding" So, whatever the IAF's reasons may be they are likely to be flimsical.

Originally Posted by Misraji

Otherwise it is pretty "obvious" that you are just running a smear campaign against the Indian Armed forces.

The above is fully accurate. I try to criticize and "expose" the Army's and IAF's policies in any forum (I was banned for this at Bharat Rakshak). I carefully construct my arguments to launch tirade after tirade against the army and IAF, so as to generate a debate and campaign against them.

It is only after a mass public pressure that the Army and IAF will come to heel.

[Himanshu]

I have no proof to backup.. but from what I know.. Dassault FAILED to answer bunch of important technical details/queries that IAF had asked DESPITE being informing Dassault multiple times.. this process as of now is running in a very tight time bound fashion..let's see what future holds..

AND Rafael is an excellent platform BUT no one out here knows the RFP details.. not necessarily it was meeting all the requirements as REQUIRED/EXPECTED by IAF... Professional forces don't work on fanboy/journalistic demands.. and for one I would also like to believe in IAF more than any other fanboy or any other true to the core journalist..

[signatory]

Originally Posted by Abhimanyu

SAAB has opened an office in New Delhi. An office for what ? It s not scooters or refrigerators they are distributing. It's not a job agency or marriage bureau. It is for a contract that even the ordinary public can't have details about even through the RTI Act or court inquiry.

Thus, the only purpose is lobbying.

Horsesh|t. It's first and foremost about customer contacts. Saab just like anyone else has offices all around the globe where they have a market position. India is buying suits of self-protection systems for Helicopters and Tanks from SAAB and has a venture with TATA to design aerospace products to name some. They also have offices in USA because they sell camo and anti-tank weapons to the US Army because it would be kind of ineffective and offensive to stay home in Sweden when you need to discuss products with the customer or have meetings with sub-contractors and local industry that might need to be involved in offset programs. Lobbyism doesn't require a office. You're also assuming way too much about Rafale and why (if) it was rejected.

[TMor]

Originally Posted by Himanshu

no one out here knows the RFP details.. not necessarily it was meeting all the requirements as REQUIRED/EXPECTED by IAF...

Oh, i guess Rafale should have had a russian or american a-a missile for example...

[Distiller]

The real interesting question is why they decided to kick out Dassault at an early stage, and publicly, when they easily at a later stage have just not decided pro Rafale. That has to be a political signal. Now there are Russian, Europeans, and Americans left - the perfect geostratigical competition. In that concert France was a minor player, maybe one too many. Those "technical reasons" are of course B.S. - whatever differences there might be between the U.S. and EU contenders, they won't be too large, and in any case the Indians would get trice the capability they had before.

[seahawk]

Each test and each evaluation costs money. So if Dassault came up with a paket that was unaccpetable for India, it made no sense to spent money on the evaluation of Rafale, if you know you are certainly not buying the plane.

I beleive that weapons and weapon integration was what killed Rafale. Because it is not cleared for US nor for Russian weapons and the M2k upgrade was a warning for India, when the price of French weapons and upgrades is considered.

[Kovy]

I beleive that weapons and weapon integration was what killed Rafale. Because it is not cleared for US nor for Russian weapons and the M2k upgrade was a warning for India, when the price of French weapons and upgrades is considered.

That is not a reason to drop the rafale at this early stage of the contest.

1- The fact that Dassault is not allowed to make a new offer indicates that the price is not really an issue.

2- the fact that it is the only aircraft dismissed before the inflight evaluation indicates that the performances of the aicraft are not the problem.

So the decision, if true, is all about politics.
India is looking for a lightweight aircraft and would like to integrate the american hardware user club... The F-16 has already been chosen imho

[seahawk]

And again "evil politics" have killed Rafale from getting the irder, although it was the best performing aircraft. Why have I heard this before?

Face it. Modern fighters are so close in performance, that price and more importantly the service life costs incl. weapons and upgrades as well as a clear and secure upgrade path are more important then the performance of the aircraft. And in that arena France/Dassault is no longer competetive. Mainly because the French insist on having an French solution for most things they hang on their plane and refuse to integrate US weapons for their own use.

[Abhimanyu]

Originally Posted by signatory

It's first and foremost about customer contacts. Saab just like anyone else has offices all around the globe where they have a market position. India is buying suits of self-protection systems for Helicopters and Tanks from SAAB and has a venture with TATA to design aerospace products to name some.

The above is accurate. I was not aware that SAAB has sold some systems for Dhruv and support for the same may be met by it's representative in Delhi.

However, the fact remains that Dassault's VP tried to publicly presssurize the IAF, but did not follow up on lobbying. This factor may have led to it's disqualification.

If I want to partake in a tender to a organization where influence and lobbying holds key, and which is accountable to a large nation of a billion + , I would execute it by public criticism and lobbying. Dassault did only the former, but did not follow up with the latter. Thus, it got eliminated.

[insomnia.delhi]

What the french doing no lobbying and bribing, that is just immpossible.

They are highly experienced and have enough contacts in the subcontinent.