Russia may sue China over pirated fighter

[MiG-23MLD]

Originally Posted by crobato

And still you have not produced a reputable article that officially states that Ross has filed a law suit. Please everyone knows how you intend to lie in the way you put Ross link with another article from a different news agency, and yet not a single article of such can be found in Ross website.

Mil-171 is an old design but the Russians are still using and selling it to everyone. A lot of designs are old but they are still good, e.g. Blackhawk.

What is swindle is Russians claiming that Tarkshent Aviation is not capable of providing the IL-76s to the Chinese contract when in fact, Tarkshent could. So the Russians are lying just to find a reason to reassign the contract somewhere else.

If you get the Russian version of the Rosoboronexport webapage and you click in Novosti or news of 22 and 24 April or in Обзор Прессы and later in 22 апреля 2008 г.
you get the news article Rosoboronexport has posted, effectively the news are from pravda but posted by Rosboronexport so Rosoboronexport is giving credit to Pravda and i can prove it to you

this is the home http://www.rusarm.ru/
and this is the news article http://www.rusarm.ru/news/lenty/lenta_08_04_22.html both are rusarm.ru, the home page is rusarm.ru and the page is rusarm.ru/news/lenty/lenta_08_04_22.html so your intent is first is not accurate niether logic and can be disproven quit easily

Also you are wrong the Il-76 is a russian product, Illyushin is Russian it is no more Soviet but a product of the Russian federation, therefore capitalist Russia has the right to say who ever Russia has to that the Illyiushin is now a Russian product and therefore only a product Russia can commercialize no swindle Crobato just capitalism

remember ROSOBORONEXPORT is the Russian defence export state corporation so if they posted that it is really a fact and no matter how you deny it you can not avoid that fact

[MiG-23MLD]

Originally Posted by crobato

The truth is Russia isn't producing any 21st century weapons. All its weapons under production are Cold War types updated with more modern electronics.

Name one weapon that is actually designed in the 21st Century that isn't rooted in some Cold War design.




Who cares. Read the industry standard semiconductor publications and I will ask what is the Russian share of the world semiconductor production which is less than 1% of the world.



Russia never produced over 30 Flankers per year after the Cold War. That's a fact.



And the Russians can't produce 80 medium class helicopters which is why they're sending kits to China.



Which means that the Russians are lying when they claim Tarkshent isn't capable of producing the IL-76. You only proved my point.

The Yak-130 was first flown in 1996, it is not a soviet era design.



Berkut is also the base of the PAk AF aslo flown in 1997

http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fighter/s37/s37-4.jpg


Ka-60 first flown in 1998



Tu-334 flown in 1999 for the first time

http://www.aviaport.ru/directory/aviation/207.html


Sukhoi super jet first flight 2008 May 19th

[star49]

Originally Posted by crobato

The truth is Russia isn't producing any 21st century weapons. All its weapons under production are Cold War types updated with more modern electronics.

Name one weapon that is actually designed in the 21st Century that isn't rooted in some Cold War design.

what is S-400/Pentysir/Brahmos/T-90/Lada/Borei/Yak-130. Even the Su-35 is new. it is avionics update.

Who cares. Read the industry standard semiconductor publications and I will ask what is the Russian share of the world semiconductor production which is less than 1% of the world.

they are only concentrating on high end military stuff. TSMC is $10b revenue foundry. Mikron is $300m revenue foundry but there are Angstrem and 3 others. It is certainly more than 1%.

Russia never produced over 30 Flankers per year after the Cold War. That's a fact.

So how it supplied 300 Flankers in 10 years to Chinese along with 80 to IAF and that is 90s record. In 80s they produced over 400 in six years time.

And the Russians can't produce 80 medium class helicopters which is why they're sending kits to China.

I think you are living in past. to Chinese they are only sending kits and components to assemble it. It is not even license production. and they are now even capable to produce 120 to 150 per year which will increase to 500 per choppers per year. Just for your record Russia has over 2000 choppers in civillian operations. Couple of thousands in military. Just supplying parts and servicing those takes huge amount of work for factories and suppliers.

Which means that the Russians are lying when they claim Tarkshent isn't capable of producing the IL-76. You only proved my point.

Nope they were not lying. the cost was low and at that time they didnot purchased the factory to take out the assembly line back to Russia and produce IL-114 in Taskent along with wings of Antonovs there. It is major restructuring that happened just this year. so they didnot know at that time.

[TinWing]

Originally Posted by MiG-23MLD

Sukhoi super jet first flight 2008 May 19th

Of all of your examples, this is the only aviation project that doesn't date from the Soviet era. Keep in mind that almost all of the Russian projects with first flights after the fall of the Soviet Union were conceived and partially completed during the Soviet era.

[RSM55]

Originally Posted by TinWing

Of all of your examples, this is the only aviation project that doesn't date from the Soviet era. Keep in mind that almost all of the Russian projects with first flights after the fall of the Soviet Union were conceived and partially completed during the Soviet era.

Which says nothing about production capabilities, though.

[Trident]

Originally Posted by TinWing

Of all of your examples, this is the only aviation project that doesn't date from the Soviet era. Keep in mind that almost all of the Russian projects with first flights after the fall of the Soviet Union were conceived and partially completed during the Soviet era.

Strictly speaking then, the overwhelming majority of all Western military aviation programmes has its roots in Cold War era as well.

Can we stop this stupid bickering about technicalities that every thread with participation by star49 seems to degenerate into? I seriously cannot fathom why people even read what he posts. It's not worth the effort.

[TinWing]

Originally Posted by MiG-23MLD

It is Rosoboronexport it is part of the April news of course you need another excuse in fact they are part of the archive news of 22 and 24 april and if you look in the Russian version old news you will find them.
http://www.roe.ru/news/lenty/lenta_08_04_24.html

and the proof is the home page for rosobooexport is http://www.roe.ru see how both pages start with www.roe.ru
The deal is not like you are saying the J-11B is not more than a copy and illegal copy of the Russian technology illegally and treacherously copied.


If you remember the F-15 deal Japan never sold or built more than what was allowed by the contract who does not know about international law is you.

When you have a product and you buy the license it does not mean you own the product it simply means you are allowed to build a limited number of examples only that and all the examples of Japan, India, Germany, US show they always respect the number of examples allowed.

Did the US build more Harriers than the number allowed by England?

Did Norway, the Netherlands, Denmark and Belgium build more F-16s than the allowed by the then General Dynaics now Lockheed Martin?

Did Italy build more speys than the allowed by Rolls Royce when they built the AMX?

Did India build more Jaguars or MiG-27 than the allowed by Russia, France and England?

Did Japan build more F-4s and F-15s than the allowed by the US?

Did England build more AH-64s than those allowed by the US?

Did Chile build more C101 Mirlo than the allowed by Spain?

Does Brazil build more Eurocopter helos than the allowed by Eurocopter?

Does Mexico build more Fuselages than the allowed by Bombardier or MD helicopters?

Did Turkey build more F-16s than the allowed by the US?

Did Israel build more J-79s than the alllowed by the US?

Did Sweden and Saab build more Pratt & Whitney JT8D engine than the allowed by the US to power their Viggens, or GE F404 for their Gripens?


Did India build more MiG-21 than the allowed by Russia?


The answer is not because in the west as in many other countries the norm is respect the license

The Su-27/J-11 stems from the Soviet era, and quite frankly, the status of Soviet era intellectual property is entirely uncertain. Moreover, in this case, it is hard to say whether a government-to-government treat, a Soviet era contract, or a post-Soviet era contract governs the continued Chinese production of the Su-27/J-11. In short, it is wrong to use provocative language, or to make anti-Chinese statements, because, after all, China might be well within its rights to continue production of the Su-27/J-11.

You can cite any number of Western licensed production deals, but the fact remains that the same rules don't apply to Soviet, or even post-Soviet, deals because of fundamental differences in the rules of property and commerce. It might be entirely possible that all of the intellectual property pertaining to the design and production Su-27 now belongs in the public domain, and that any corporation or entity outside of Russia has every right to it.

[MiG-23MLD]

Originally Posted by TinWing

The Su-27/J-11 stems from the Soviet era, and quite frankly, the status of Soviet era intellectual property is entirely uncertain. Moreover, in this case, it is hard to say whether a government-to-government treat, a Soviet era contract, or a post-Soviet era contract governs the continued Chinese production of the Su-27/J-11. In short, it is wrong to use provocative language, or to make anti-Chinese statements, because, after all, China might be well within its rights to continue production of the Su-27/J-11.

You can cite any number of Western licensed production deals, but the fact remains that the same rules don't apply to Soviet, or even post-Soviet, deals because of fundamental differences in the rules of property and commerce. It might be entirely possible that all of the intellectual property pertaining to the design and production Su-27 now belongs in the public domain, and that any corporation or entity outside of Russia has every right to it.

The Original Chinese-Russian agreement dates from 1996, five years after the Soviet union`s collapse, so the agreement was signed between Russia and China not by the Soviet Union and China.

The first kits were delivered after 1996 and were only assemble several yeas after 1996 so your full argument is not logic.

Russia has totally the right of the Su-27 production

[MiG-23MLD]

Originally Posted by Trident

Strictly speaking then, the overwhelming majority of all Western military aviation programmes has its roots in Cold War era as well.

Can we stop this stupid bickering about technicalities that every thread with participation by star49 seems to degenerate into? I seriously cannot fathom why people even read what he posts. It's not worth the effort.

You are correct in fact many of China`s projects are also rooted in the cold war era, the JH-7 is one, the J-10 too since it has AL-31s and is based upon the Lavi and the JF-17 too since it is powered by the RD-33.

[MiG-23MLD]

Originally Posted by TinWing

Of all of your examples, this is the only aviation project that doesn't date from the Soviet era. Keep in mind that almost all of the Russian projects with first flights after the fall of the Soviet Union were conceived and partially completed during the Soviet era.

Man please the Yak-130 is a post soviet era design flown after 1991 and flown five years after the collapse of the Soviet Union rooted is just a time of begining of the project but in reality it flew in Russia not in the Soviet Union but then the F-22 is also a Cold war design as well the Eurofighter, Gripen and Rafale or even the AH-64 or the C-130 or the F-15 and F-16 are cold war era fighters

[crobato]

Originally Posted by star49

what is S-400/Pentysir/Brahmos/T-90/Lada/Borei/Yak-130. Even the Su-35 is new. it is avionics update.

Boy you sure don't know stuff. S-400 started from the S-300. Actually just renamed from PMU3. Its still heavily derived from the S-300 and parts of the project began in the Soviet Union. Pantsyr, yes. Brahmos from Yakhont, also developed during the Soviet Union. T-90 is heavily derived from the T-72. Lada development already began during the Soviet Union, and its hardly an innovative sub. So is Borei. Only one you can claim there is Yak-130. Su-35 is NOT NEW. Just a guzzed up Su-27 airframe.

they are only concentrating on high end military stuff. TSMC is $10b revenue foundry. Mikron is $300m revenue foundry but there are Angstrem and 3 others. It is certainly more than 1%.

Bull. In 2003, the Russian share is a mere 0.3 percent. I don't find Mikron products in any celphone, DVD, PC, and other form of commercial electronics. Besides TSMC, there is UMC, SMC, etc,. And then you have the memory manufacturers. You're only talking about starting .18 micron facilities when China is already at least two generations and has begun already at the 0.09 micron going to .065.

So how it supplied 300 Flankers in 10 years to Chinese along with 80 to IAF and that is 90s record. In 80s they produced over 400 in six years time.

MORE BULL from you.

Russia supplied 300 Flankers to China but only a 176 of these were actually made in Russia and the rest were assembled in China with increasing degrees of domestic content. This supply started in 1992, and that's already 16 years.

During all these years, there was never a point where Russia exceeded over 30 aircraft per year. As a matter of fact, the Chinese orders came in batches of 19 or 24 aircraft. The Venenzuelan aircraft were Su-30MK2s that the Russians built in advance for future Chinese orders that never came through.

As for India, Russia started supplying right from 2002, and that's about six years already, averaging 10 to 12 aircraft a year. Some of the MKIs were assembled in India for a trial assembly run.

I think you are living in past. to Chinese they are only sending kits and components to assemble it. It is not even license production. and they are now even capable to produce 120 to 150 per year which will increase to 500 per choppers per year. Just for your record Russia has over 2000 choppers in civillian operations. Couple of thousands in military. Just supplying parts and servicing those takes huge amount of work for factories and suppliers.

The only one living in the PAST Is YOU. The first few J-11s were from kits, but gradually and quickly, domestic content came in. In fact the Russians were marveled and were surprised by all the machine tools the Chinese were using that enabled them to produce planes with superior fit and finish compared to the Russians.

As a result of this KnAAPO made plans to upgrade their own facilities by purchasing tools using the money from the Chinese contracts---which led to a battle with Sukhoi, which wanted the money to develop PAK-FA.

All the choppers the Russians have are from the Soviet Union, and it is very doubtful that most of them are in working order.

Nope they were not lying. the cost was low and at that time they didnot purchased the factory to take out the assembly line back to Russia and produce IL-114 in Taskent along with wings of Antonovs there. It is major restructuring that happened just this year. so they didnot know at that time.

The fact remained that according to the interview, Tarkshent was more than capable of fulfilling the Chinese contract, but the Russians moved the contract to somewhere within Russia instead, then asked the Chinese to fork over the increased costs. So obviously someone is lying.

You signed a contract, you live with it. If you want people to live up to their contracts, start living up on your own. We have seen this trick pulled by the Russians on the Indians, who are now starting to increasingly purchase Western material.

[crobato]

Originally Posted by MiG-23MLD

If you get the Russian version of the Rosoboronexport webapage and you click in Novosti or news of 22 and 24 April or in Обзор Прессы and later in 22 апреля 2008 г.
you get the news article Rosoboronexport has posted, effectively the news are from pravda but posted by Rosboronexport so Rosoboronexport is giving credit to Pravda and i can prove it to you

this is the home http://www.rusarm.ru/

Which doesn't show it.

and this is the news article http://www.rusarm.ru/news/lenty/lenta_08_04_22.html both are rusarm.ru, the home page is rusarm.ru and the page is rusarm.ru/news/lenty/lenta_08_04_22.html so your intent is first is not accurate niether logic and can be disproven quit easily

The links you are referring don't work at all.

And this is what I found in an article dated April 22, 2008.

Google translated.

"ROSOBORONEKSPORT" FORUM TO "HIGH TECHNOLOGY XXI CENTURY"

Yeah, its an exhibit.

Also you are wrong the Il-76 is a russian product, Illyushin is Russian it is no more Soviet but a product of the Russian federation, therefore capitalist Russia has the right to say who ever Russia has to that the Illyiushin is now a Russian product and therefore only a product Russia can commercialize no swindle Crobato just capitalism

remember ROSOBORONEXPORT is the Russian defence export state corporation so if they posted that it is really a fact and no matter how you deny it you can not avoid that fact

Sorry, but the IL-76 is a product of the Soviet Union, and so are the Su-27 and a whole bunch of other stuff that has to rely on parts from the Ukraine, or Belaruss or Uzbekistan. A lot of engineers were from all over the SU, and not particularly just Russian.

The fact remains that the Russians failed to deliver on a contract. That's obvious.

Just recently a company for Norway canceled their major tanker contract with SEVMASH. Obviously SEVMASH cannot complete their contracts at the time frame and cost the Norwegians wanted. You can see a pattern here.

[star49]

Originally Posted by crobato

Boy you sure don't know stuff. S-400 started from the S-300. Actually just renamed from PMU3. Its still heavily derived from the S-300 and parts of the project began in the Soviet Union. Pantsyr, yes. Brahmos from Yakhont, also developed during the Soviet Union. T-90 is heavily derived from the T-72. Lada development already began during the Soviet Union, and its hardly an innovative sub. So is Borei. Only one you can claim there is Yak-130. Su-35 is NOT NEW. Just a guzzed up Su-27 airframe.

heavily derived from S-300? No one knows exact specification of S-400. it is certainly completely new system. If it was the same they wouldnt be exporting S-300PMU-2. show me deployment of Yakhont in Soviet times just like YF-22?. T-90? different engines, armour. on what basis ur saying lada is not innovative. Its quietness is several magnitude of kilo thats why it is not allowed for export. u cannot make Su-35 in the same production equipment as Su-27. Just look at engine life, TWR of engines (different materials), Fibreoptics channels, FBW controlled 3D TVC, 15inch LCD screens etc. If it looks the same it does not mean that technology and production process the two are the same.

Bull. In 2003, the Russian share is a mere 0.3 percent. I don't find Mikron products in any celphone, DVD, PC, and other form of commercial electronics. Besides TSMC, there is UMC, SMC, etc,. And then you have the memory manufacturers. You're only talking about starting .18 micron facilities when China is already at least two generations and has begun already at the 0.09 micron going to .065.

so it is 2003 now?
just look at PAK-FA thread next year they are going to 65nm and than 45nm. and they are not low cost producer for DVD, PCs.

Russia supplied 300 Flankers to China but only a 176 of these were actually made in Russia and the rest were assembled in China with increasing degrees of domestic content. This supply started in 1992, and that's already 16 years.

so complete engines, kits does not matter along with huge staff deputed to Chinese factory to teach them how to make flanker? i am not going to other exports. Supply started in 1992 but ended in 2004. Twelve years the most and from 1992-97 Chinese were not buying huge number anyway so how is that Russia supply fault?

During all these years, there was never a point where Russia exceeded over 30 aircraft per year. As a matter of fact, the Chinese orders came in batches of 19 or 24 aircraft. The Venenzuelan aircraft were Su-30MK2s that the Russians built in advance for future Chinese orders that never came through.

Never a point? how all those tally add up. India had 32 MKI by 2002-2004. and China got all 100 MKK from 2001-2004. So that alone is 132. there is additional supply to some other customers. in mean time and what about those UBK supply in 2001-02?

As for India, Russia started supplying right from 2002, and that's about six years already, averaging 10 to 12 aircraft a year.

they had 18 Su-30K to train one. And from 2002-2004 they got 32MKI and now it is over 80 with kits.

The only one living in the PAST Is YOU. The first few J-11s were from kits, but gradually and quickly, domestic content came in. In fact the Russians were marveled and were surprised by all the machine tools the Chinese were using that enabled them to produce planes with superior fit and finish compared to the Russians.

Yes Chinese made factory renovation ahead of Russians in 90s but now Russians spending is far greater than Chinese on military as most of Chinese money is going to fight inflation. they simply dont have the kind of surplus money,experiance, supply chain,technical skills of Russia .
You are the one claiming on this form that ARJ-21 will fly before SSJ and that despite having ready engines form GE.

As a result of this KnAAPO made plans to upgrade their own facilities by purchasing tools using the money from the Chinese contracts---which led to a battle with Sukhoi, which wanted the money to develop PAK-FA.

thats why SSJ is flying but ARJ-21 is on the ground.

All the choppers the Russians have are from the Soviet Union, and it is very doubtful that most of them are in working order.

I am not even going into global supply chain of Russian copters. Just look at UN operations, war zones etc. Now they are discussing license for Iran. and SK alone operates 50 Ka-32. first time supply to Japan and some other middleast countries. The need to increase production to 500 per year just to meet the domestic demand.

Nope Russians lie all the time, a habit they picked up from covering their ass from the KGB. The fact remained that according to the interview, Tarkshent was more than capable of fulfilling the Chinese contract, but the Russians moved the contract to somewhere within Russia instead, then asked the Chinese to fork over the increased costs.

Chinese dont lie? making indigenous claims of J-10. ur only referring to false interview without any basis of reality. IL-76 price is $50m per aircraft for every one.

You signed a contract, you live with it. If you want people to live up to their contracts, start living up on your own. We have seen this trick pulled by the Russians on the Indians, who are now starting to increasingly purchase Western material.

Increasing purchase from West? what were thos Jaguars, Sea harriers, Mirag-2000, U-boats,Arjun Tank(MTU Engine). All those belong to Coldwar era.
fact of matter is Russia can afford to play tricks.

Sorry, but the IL-76 is a product of the Soviet Union, and so are the Su-27 and a whole bunch of other stuff that has to rely on parts from the Ukraine, or Belaruss or Uzbekistan. A lot of engineers were from all over the SU, and not particularly just Russian.

IL-76 with 60 tons capacity, 210 MTOW, increased range, 15% better fuel efficiency, ICAO-5 nosie levels, PS-90 engine is not product of soviet union.

Just recently a company for Norway canceled their major tanker contract with SEVMASH. Obviously SEVMASH cannot complete their contracts at the time frame and cost the Norwegians wanted. You can see a pattern here

those tanker will completed and sold in open market for much higher price.

[MiG-23MLD]

Originally Posted by crobato

Which doesn't show it.



The links you are referring don't work at all.

And this is what I found in an article dated April 22, 2008.

Google translated.

"ROSOBORONEKSPORT" FORUM TO "HIGH TECHNOLOGY XXI CENTURY"

Yeah, its an exhibit.



Sorry, but the IL-76 is a product of the Soviet Union, and so are the Su-27 and a whole bunch of other stuff that has to rely on parts from the Ukraine, or Belaruss or Uzbekistan. A lot of engineers were from all over the SU, and not particularly just Russian.

The fact remains that the Russians failed to deliver on a contract. That's obvious.

Just recently a company for Norway canceled their major tanker contract with SEVMASH. Obviously SEVMASH cannot complete their contracts at the time frame and cost the Norwegians wanted. You can see a pattern here.

They do work what happens you want to pretend they do not work if that is the way you defend your prestige it means you are not able to admitt your mistakes, it is obvious you prefer to live in a lie that admit mistakes any one with some inteligence will open the links and see you are lying, any one that checks the April 22 and 24 will see you are lying and the most important you are not just pretending they do not work but you are trying to fool others by fooling your self however the links they do work and the sad of this is you prefer to live in a lie just to live in a fantasy just because of pride

http://www.rusarm.ru/news/lenty/lenta_08_04_22.html

http://www.rusarm.ru/

[MiG-23MLD]

Originally Posted by crobato

Boy you sure don't know stuff. S-400 started from the S-300. Actually just renamed from PMU3. Its still heavily derived from the S-300 and parts of the project began in the Soviet Union. Pantsyr, yes. Brahmos from Yakhont, also developed during the Soviet Union. T-90 is heavily derived from the T-72. Lada development already began during the Soviet Union, and its hardly an innovative sub. So is Borei. Only one you can claim there is Yak-130. Su-35 is NOT NEW. Just a guzzed up Su-27 airframe.



Bull. In 2003, the Russian share is a mere 0.3 percent. I don't find Mikron products in any celphone, DVD, PC, and other form of commercial electronics. Besides TSMC, there is UMC, SMC, etc,. And then you have the memory manufacturers. You're only talking about starting .18 micron facilities when China is already at least two generations and has begun already at the 0.09 micron going to .065.



MORE BULL from you.

Russia supplied 300 Flankers to China but only a 176 of these were actually made in Russia and the rest were assembled in China with increasing degrees of domestic content. This supply started in 1992, and that's already 16 years.

During all these years, there was never a point where Russia exceeded over 30 aircraft per year. As a matter of fact, the Chinese orders came in batches of 19 or 24 aircraft. The Venenzuelan aircraft were Su-30MK2s that the Russians built in advance for future Chinese orders that never came through.

As for India, Russia started supplying right from 2002, and that's about six years already, averaging 10 to 12 aircraft a year. Some of the MKIs were assembled in India for a trial assembly run.



The only one living in the PAST Is YOU. The first few J-11s were from kits, but gradually and quickly, domestic content came in. In fact the Russians were marveled and were surprised by all the machine tools the Chinese were using that enabled them to produce planes with superior fit and finish compared to the Russians.

As a result of this KnAAPO made plans to upgrade their own facilities by purchasing tools using the money from the Chinese contracts---which led to a battle with Sukhoi, which wanted the money to develop PAK-FA.

All the choppers the Russians have are from the Soviet Union, and it is very doubtful that most of them are in working order.



The fact remained that according to the interview, Tarkshent was more than capable of fulfilling the Chinese contract, but the Russians moved the contract to somewhere within Russia instead, then asked the Chinese to fork over the increased costs. So obviously someone is lying.

You signed a contract, you live with it. If you want people to live up to their contracts, start living up on your own. We have seen this trick pulled by the Russians on the Indians, who are now starting to increasingly purchase Western material.

Crobato


The Russians are not the Soviet Union in fact ask a modern russian citizen and they will say to you they are Russians and their nation is the Russian federation.

Ilyushin is Russian was Soviet true but now is Russian they have all the rights for the Il-76s because the Ilyushin bureax of design is now in Russia and a property of Russians, however there was some wrangling among former soviets states because some did supply parts for Soviet aircraft, however Russia was the most populated and the most advanced of all the former soviet states.

Ukriane and Russia came to the conclusion the antonov Bureaux was in need of its Russian suppliers and market and they continue the coperation in aircraft manufacture but in reality the Antonov is an Ukranian firm tha does coperate with Russia

Only Ukraine was in some areas as powerful as Russia in fact if you see the Antonov bureax is un Ukraine and therefore an Ukrainian company, Lotarev (now Ivchenko or Progress) also is Ukranian, each republic claimed what was in its soil, and the Ilyushin bureaux was in Russia therefore it is Russian and not soviet any more.

http://www.ivchenko-progress.com/welcome.do?id=12

For the first time in the world, specially for this aircraft Ivchenko Progress Design Bureau designed a Д-27 propfan engine and Aerosila Joint Stock Company developed a CB-27 multi-blade contrarotating propfan ensuring 30% less fuel consumption in comparison with current turbofan engines. The AN-70 aircraft comprises the best features of the transports created by the Antonov's staff for the 50-year activity. The aircraft performed its maiden flight on December 16, 1994. Today, preparation for the aircraft serial production is being proceeded at manufacture facilities of Kiev plant AVIANT and Omsk PA Polyot in cooperation with other aviation plants of the Russian Federation

http://www.antonov.com/about/history/index.xml

see that Antonov needs russian cooperation to build aircraft

[crobato]

Originally Posted by star49

heavily derived from S-300? No one knows exact specification of S-400. it is certainly completely new system. If it was the same they wouldnt be exporting S-300PMU-2. show me deployment of Yakhont in Soviet times just like YF-22?. T-90? different engines, armour. on what basis ur saying lada is not innovative. Its quietness is several magnitude of kilo thats why it is not allowed for export. u cannot make Su-35 in the same production equipment as Su-27. Just look at engine life, TWR of engines (different materials), Fibreoptics channels, FBW controlled 3D TVC, 15inch LCD screens etc. If it looks the same it does not mean that technology and production process the two are the same.

S-400 is not a new system. It used to be S-300PMU3. Everyone knows that T-90 is a T-72 derivate. Lada is several magnitude quieter than a Kilo, ha, it failed its trials, which is why only one is made and it has been lifted from being offered to Indonesia.

Su-35 is still derivate of Su-27. You still have the same design as the Su-27. None of what you said makes the Su-35 a brand new plane, unless you want to say the same standard for the J-11B.

so it is 2003 now?
just look at PAK-FA thread next year they are going to 65nm and than 45nm. and they are not low cost producer for DVD, PCs.

Bull. They only talking of getting to 0.9, and still currently at 0.18. Low cost producer means having quality at low cost. The fundamentals of commercial electronics industry benefits that of of the defense electronics industry. You build from the ground up, not top down.

so complete engines, kits does not matter along with huge staff deputed to Chinese factory to teach them how to make flanker? i am not going to other exports. Supply started in 1992 but ended in 2004. Twelve years the most and from 1992-97 Chinese were not buying huge number anyway so how is that Russia supply fault?

Bull. Kits in 2004 were far from complete. In fact, by 2004, China made up to 80% of the components.

Never a point? how all those tally add up. India had 32 MKI by 2002-2004. and China got all 100 MKK from 2001-2004. So that alone is 132. there is additional supply to some other customers. in mean time and what about those UBK supply in 2001-02?

WRONG. India got 10 Su-30MKI in 2002, and no, they didn't have 32 MK by 2004, because around 18 of said Su-30s are Su-30Ks they got before 1999. China got 100 Su-30MKK but the production started in 2000. UBK supply was 10 planes a year and 8 planes in the final year for 28. UBK and MKI was made by Irkut, and MKK by KnAAPO. No MKI was completed when the first 20 UBK was completed, and the first 10 MKI was only completed after the last 8 UBK was completed. This is by Irkut. 2000-10 UBK, 2001-10 UBK, 2002-8 UBK, 10 MKI.

MKK started deliveries at the end of 2000, and has been on the average of 19 per year (2000-19, 2001-19, 2002-19, 2003-19). In 2004, they delivered 24.

So you have two factories, and the output at best is just between 30 to 40 at its peak and under 30 for the average.

Hardly the hundreds per year as you claim. Delivered to others? The MKM was only delivered last year. Only two Su-27s and two Su-30MK was delivered to Indonesia. Vietnam had two to four Su-30MK. That was pretty much after 2005.

they had 18 Su-30K to train one. And from 2002-2004 they got 32MKI and now it is over 80 with kits.

The 32 you are mixing MKI and -K numbers. And yes, they probably have 70 to 80 but that's because HAL is now assembling. Otherwise you see Irkut isn't moving anything more than 12 per year on something as complex as the Su-30MKI.

Yes Chinese made factory renovation ahead of Russians in 90s but now Russians spending is far greater than Chinese on military as most of Chinese money is going to fight inflation. they simply dont have the kind of surplus money,experiance, supply chain,technical skills of Russia .

How is Russian spending greater than the Chinese, which is officially now at 50 billion and unofficially at over 100 billion? Any official proof of that?

In 2006, the Russian military budget was US$26 billion.

Fight inflation? You are so funny and delirious. You once claimed that double digit inflation in Russia is good.

Inflation in Russia is double digits yearly. In fact it was a whooping 12% last year. The Russian military budget actually does not keep up with the inflation.

You are the one claiming on this form that ARJ-21 will fly before SSJ and that despite having ready engines form GE.

thats why SSJ is flying but ARJ-21 is on the ground.

I am not even going into global supply chain of Russian copters. Just look at UN operations, war zones etc. Now they are discussing license for Iran. and SK alone operates 50 Ka-32. first time supply to Japan and some other middleast countries. The need to increase production to 500 per year just to meet the domestic demand.

UN operations? You are barely into UN operations and can't even control the war zones.

The fact remains, China is now assembling MiL-17 helicopters because you are incapable of meeting the demand of at least 80 per year.

Chinese dont lie? making indigenous claims of J-10. ur only referring to false interview without any basis of reality. IL-76 price is $50m per aircraft for every one.

There are always false interviews with the Russians, e.g. arms reports of signed contracts that never actually happened.

IL-76 price is negotiated between Russia and China. You signed a contract, you live with it. Otherwise, you are guilty of lying and misrepresentation.

Increasing purchase from West? what were thos Jaguars, Sea harriers, Mirag-2000, U-boats,Arjun Tank(MTU Engine). All those belong to Coldwar era.
fact of matter is Russia can afford to play tricks.

Oh really, why is the MRCA basically about Western fighters? Why is India looking at Orions? What are those Barak missiles?

IL-76 with 60 tons capacity, 210 MTOW, increased range, 15% better fuel efficiency, ICAO-5 nosie levels, PS-90 engine is not product of soviet union.

No one asked for that. You provide the IL-76 as specified in the contract and at the price in the contract.

If you want to offer upgrades, make a separate contract. Facts remain the Russians don't know how to do business.

those tanker will completed and sold in open market for much higher price.

What a joke. The facts is SEVMASH could not complete those contracts, and that cost the Norwegian company much more money. They could probably build those tankers in Denmark or Korea for a much better price and quality.

[crobato]

Originally Posted by MiG-23MLD

They do work what happens you want to pretend they do not work if that is the way you defend your prestige it means you are not able to admitt your mistakes, it is obvious you prefer to live in a lie that admit mistakes any one with some inteligence will open the links and see you are lying, any one that checks the April 22 and 24 will see you are lying and the most important you are not just pretending they do not work but you are trying to fool others by fooling your self however the links they do work and the sad of this is you prefer to live in a lie just to live in a fantasy just because of pride

http://www.rusarm.ru/news/lenty/lenta_08_04_22.html

http://www.rusarm.ru/

Except that the original article wasn't made by Ross itself.


Nezavisimaya Gazeta. 22.04.2008. /Виктор Мясников/. / Viktor Myasnikov.


In fact, every news article in that page isn't something officially by Ross as you look further down. Its just a collection of various news events related to Russian armstrade.


Russia will increase the supply of weapons
Труд. Trud. 22.04.2008

Pre artpodgotovka
ВРЕМЯ НОВОСТЕЙ. TIME NEWS. 22.04.2008. /Николай ПОРОСКОВ, Куала-Лумпур/. / Nikolay POROSKOV, Kuala Lumpu'

Time News in Kuala Lumpur?

So don't pretend that the article is some official statement from Ross like you falsely make it out to be.

[MiG-23MLD]

Originally Posted by crobato

Except that the original article wasn't made by Ross itself.


Nezavisimaya Gazeta. 22.04.2008. /Виктор Мясников/. / Viktor Myasnikov.


In fact, every news article in that page isn't something officially by Ross as you look further down. Its just a collection of various news events related to Russian armstrade.


Russia will increase the supply of weapons
Труд. Trud. 22.04.2008

Pre artpodgotovka
ВРЕМЯ НОВОСТЕЙ. TIME NEWS. 22.04.2008. /Николай ПОРОСКОВ, Куала-Лумпур/. / Nikolay POROSKOV, Kuala Lumpu'

Time News in Kuala Lumpur?

So don't pretend that the article is some official statement from Ross like you falsely make it out to be.

The article is posted in the past news of April of the Rosoboronexport`s webpage , they are part of their media watch and rosoboronexport is basicly posting the news.
The News are in the rosobornexport news section of its official webpage therefore they are giving credit to this.

Rosoboronexport does post news from other russian outlets, if the official russian defence export state corporation has in its own webpage that news what does it mean, that rosoboronexport posts lies?

you know perfectly the answer the Russian media has reported that Russia has already informed China that the J-11B production is a violation of the interstate agreement.

Do you want to believe it? no of course not for you your pride is more important

[crobato]

Sorry, but that does not make it official. Anything from a third party source posted in a host does not make the third party's opinion shared by the host. That's how the media works.

If you really want to prove that a formal legal action has been made, print text from Ross or from the Russian government itself, not second hand from news reports. Name the international court its been filed. Please note that the Russians are not a member of the WTO and the WTO does not cover national security issues.

Somehow formally, Ross mentions the MiL-17 license officially and clearly in its web page as front page news but the J-11 issue is not? Furthermore, that webpage you referred to isn't even directly linked from the main page, like its buried deep so people don't notice it exactly.

You can see where its going.

The issue is all moot anyway. Russia isn't going to win any law suits here but as complaints go, they're going to get some kind of compensation anyway.

[star49]

Originally Posted by crobato

S-400 is not a new system. It used to be S-300PMU3. Everyone knows that T-90 is a T-72 derivate. Lada is several magnitude quieter than a Kilo, ha, it failed its trials, which is why only one is made and it has been lifted from being offered to Indonesia.

who knows anything aout S-400. It has been exported or evaluated. It is like saying that F-22 can use F-15C weopons. So it must be derivative. Same is with T-90. just compare price of T-72upgrade to T-90. It is different capability

Su-35 is still derivate of Su-27. You still have the same design as the Su-27. None of what you said makes the Su-35 a brand new plane, unless you want to say the same standard for the J-11B.

name me a single part of Su-35 that is same as Su-27? u cannot even manufacture Su-35 in Su-27 factory. J-11B is same Su-27SK

Bull. They only talking of getting to 0.9, and still currently at 0.18. Low cost producer means having quality at low cost. The fundamentals of commercial electronics industry benefits that of of the defense electronics industry. You build from the ground up, not top down.

where is that coming from. They are going directly into 0.45n. EU is at 0.32nm in 2006.

Russia's Sistema to invest $860 mln in construction of Sitronics plant

MOSCOW. April 9 (Interfax) - Russia's AFK Sistema (RTS: AFKS) is planning to invest about $860 million in the construction of a plant in Zelenograd for its high-tech arm Sitronics to produce microchips with feature size ranging from 0.045-0.065 microns.

The shareholder capital of the new plant will be distributed as follows: the government will own 46%, Sistema - 43% and Sitronics - 11%, Sitronics general director Sergei Aslanian said at a press conference in Moscow on Wednesday

Bull. Kits in 2004 were far from complete. In fact, by 2004, China made up to 80% of the components.

In 2004 80% of components?

WRONG. India got 10 Su-30MKI in 2002, and no, they didn't have 32 MK by 2004, because around 18 of said Su-30s are Su-30Ks they got before 1999. China got 100 Su-30MKK but the production started in 2000. UBK supply was 10 planes a year and 8 planes in the final year for 28. UBK and MKI was made by Irkut, and MKK by KnAAPO. No MKI was completed when the first 20 UBK was completed, and the first 10 MKI was only completed after the last 8 UBK was completed. This is by Irkut. 2000-10 UBK, 2001-10 UBK, 2002-8 UBK, 10 MKI.

MKK started deliveries at the end of 2000, and has been on the average of 19 per year (2000-19, 2001-19, 2002-19, 2003-19). In 2004, they delivered 24.

this is from 2004.

http://www.irkut.com/en/news/news_ar...x.php?id48=127
THIRD PHASE Su-30MKI DELIVERY TO INDIA STARTED

So you have two factories, and the output at best is just between 30 to 40 at its peak and under 30 for the average.

Hardly the hundreds per year as you claim. Delivered to others? The MKM was only delivered last year. Only two Su-27s and two Su-30MK was delivered to Indonesia. Vietnam had two to four Su-30MK. That was pretty much after 2005.

I guess u havent added those 26 SU-27SM. between 2004-06 period. MKM was slow because of integration. Everything will be completed this year. all 24 to Venzueal completed this year. 26 Su-27SM completed this year. 16MKA completed this year. Not to mention 10 Su-34. and sending kits of atleast 16MKI.

The 32 you are mixing MKI and -K numbers. And yes, they probably have 70 to 80 but that's because HAL is now assembling. Otherwise you see Irkut isn't moving anything more than 12 per year on something as complex as the Su-30MKI.

HAL is assembling? once u have parts in place even Indonesia can assemble it.

How is Russian spending greater than the Chinese, which is officially now at 50 billion and unofficially at over 100 billion? Any official proof of that?

In weopons R&D and production Russia share is far greater. Russia energy prices are far below the market price. lowest world taxes but biggest budget surplus in the world.
I am not even going into material prices. Real budget of Russia will be well $120B. translating PPP will be alteast $360B.

http://russiatoday.ru/news/news/24316
Moscow's budget now matches New York's

In 2006, the Russian military budget was US$26 billion.

that are official figures.

Fight inflation? You are so funny and delirious. You once claimed that double digit inflation in Russia is good.

Inflation in Russia is double digits yearly. In fact it was a whooping 12% last year. The Russian military budget actually does not keep up with the inflation.

inflation is double digit but wages growth far outstrip inflation so they dont have fight inflation like other countries thats why putin has 80% popularity.

UN operations? You are barely into UN operations and can't even control the war zones.

The fact remains, China is now assembling MiL-17 helicopters because you are incapable of meeting the demand of at least 80 per year.

fact remains that ur just beginning. come back when u reaches 80 figure. U cannot even make 10 J-11B per year after 10 years of licensing.

There are always false interviews with the Russians, e.g. arms reports of signed contracts that never actually happened.

IL-76 price is negotiated between Russia and China. You signed a contract, you live with it. Otherwise, you are guilty of lying and misrepresentation.

there is 3 way contract.

Oh really, why is the MRCA basically about Western fighters? Why is India looking at Orions? What are those Barak missiles?

from where u got this information. by the time MRCA reaches India it will be atleast a decade with huge mixture of components from different countries. Barak has been frozen. why is more A-50 with double the price of previous one? Tu-142 will remain in IN service for long time.

No one asked for that. You provide the IL-76 as specified in the contract and at the price in the contract.

If you want to offer upgrades, make a separate contract. Facts remain the Russians don't know how to do business.

they are introducing new methods of business that they want to impose on rest of the world. Rest of world has to live with it just like China.

[MiG-23MLD]

Originally Posted by crobato

Sorry, but that does not make it official. Anything from a third party source posted in a host does not make the third party's opinion shared by the host. That's how the media works.

If you really want to prove that a formal legal action has been made, print text from Ross or from the Russian government itself, not second hand from news reports. Name the international court its been filed. Please note that the Russians are not a member of the WTO and the WTO does not cover national security issues.

Somehow formally, Ross mentions the MiL-17 license officially and clearly in its web page as front page news but the J-11 issue is not? Furthermore, that webpage you referred to isn't even directly linked from the main page, like its buried deep so people don't notice it exactly.

You can see where its going.

The issue is all moot anyway. Russia isn't going to win any law suits here but as complaints go, they're going to get some kind of compensation anyway.

When Rosoboronexport posted the news is already crediting it, also the news posted about the Mi-17 are in the same section of the news of the russians sueing china because of the J-11B illegal production but they are in different day and the news are not official press releases as you affirm, the official press releases are about rosoboronexport exposition participation only

here is the proof
this is May 22 2008 about the Mi-17 assembly in China
http://www.roe.ru/news/lenty/lenta_08_05_22.html




Опасный конкурент
В Китае может быть организована сборка вертолетов Ми-171
RBCdaily. 22.05.2008. /Сергей Колобков/.
По мнению многих представителей авиапрома, создание на территории Китая мощностей по сборке вертолетов Ми-171 может стать серьезной угрозой российской промышленности. Противники этого проекта вспоминают, как разработанный истребитель J-11B стал аналогом Су-27СК, который производился в Китае с 1996 года. Мощность создаваемого вертолето-строительного производства составляет 100 машин в год. По некоторым данным, у китайской стороны уже есть заказчики из восьми стран, а на территорию завода поставлено 53 комплекта.


In China can be organized assembly of Mi-171 helicopters
RBCdaily. 22.05.2008. / Sergei Kolobkov.
According to many representatives aviaproma, establishment of the Chinese territory's assembly capacity MI-171 could become a serious threat to Russian industry. Opponents of the project recall, as developed by J-11B fighter was analogous to the Su-27SK, which took place in China since 1996. aircraft-building production of 100 sets a year. According to some reports, the Chinese side already have customers from eight countries, and the territory of the plant supplied 53 sets.
here is the Su-27 piracy news

Обзор Прессы
22 апреля 2008 г.
Военно-техническое сотрудничество России с иностранными государствами.
Международное военное сотрудничество
Подозрительный аналог
РУССКИЕ "СУШКИ" ПО-КИТАЙСКИ
Независимая Газета. 22.04.2008. /Виктор Мясников/.
Пекин становится крупнейшим экспортером оружия за счет приобретенных у Москвы технологий
Попытки России закрепиться на китайском рынке вооружений с помощью передачи Пекину «отверточной» сборки истребителей Су-27СК не оправдали ожиданий. Освоив технологию выпуска, Китай наладил собственное производство их аналогов с прицелом на последующий экспорт в страны третьего мира. Россия официально уведомила Китай о том, что производство истребителей J11, копирующих российский Су-27СК, является нарушением межгосударственных договоренностей.
Press Review
April 22, 2008
Military-technical cooperation with foreign countries Russia.
The international military cooperation
Suspicious analogue
RUSSIANS "SUSHKI" PO-KITAYSKI
Nezavisimaya Gazeta. 22.04.2008. / Viktor Myasnikov.
Beijing has become the largest exporter of arms from technology acquired from Moscow
Attempts to Russia gaining a foothold on the Chinese market through the transfer of weapons to Beijing "otvertochnoy" assembly of Su-27SK fighters fell short of expectations. Mance technology issue, China has developed its own production of their counterparts with a view to the subsequent export to third world countries. Russia officially informed China that manufacture fighter J11, copied the Russian Su-27SK, is a violation of interstate agreements

http://www.roe.ru/news/lenty/lenta_08_04_22.html

here is the proof these are Rosoboron press releases and these only deal with international arms shows


http://www.roe.ru/news/pr_rel/pr_rel..._08_05_12.html

http://www.roe.ru/news/pr_rel/pr_rel..._08_04_21.html

Please Crobato you are no fooling any one only your self

[Pinko]

Lol. For someone flashing around “news” as the proof of any authorization bound with legal power.

No matter where it appears, news is news, and can’t be stolen the concept as anyone’s official publically declared standing.

For the one infamous for spamming, Wiki is the starting point for your long journey of learning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/News

Unless he shows us what exactly the “Su27SK Agreement” is ( as I already required so one month ago and keep requiring), and show us what clauses in the said agreement exactly asserted his high db violation charge. Otherwise, we can treat someone’s behavior typically ranting and nonsense as usual.

[Pinko]

So what is the official announcement and not a news only, here is the example, which comes directly from the president of Sukhoi and he is promoting the co-operation between Sukhoi and Chinese partner.

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080523/108160624.html

Russia's Sukhoi prepared to cooperate with China

09:50 | 23/ 05/ 2008



BEIJING, May 23 (RIA Novosti) - Russia's Sukhoi aircraft manufacturer is ready to cooperate with China in civilian aircraft development projects, the company's CEO said on Friday.

Mikhail Pogosyan said China has shown an interested in a new modification of the Superjet 100 medium-haul passenger airliner.

"The Chinese market is so vast that [we] have a good chance of finding potential customers without competing with China's ARJ-21 regional airliner program," he said.

He said that Sukhoi's products are aimed at the global market.
"Cooperation is a promising area, since competition in the world market requires greater integration," the executive said.

The Superjet 100 project is a family of medium-range passenger aircraft developed by the Sukhoi Design Bureau in cooperation with major American and European aviation corporations, including Boeing, Snecma, Thales, Messier Dowty, Liebherr Aerospace, and Honeywell.

The market for the Superjet 100 is estimated at around $100 billion for around 5,500 planes, up to 2023.

Flooggy, you can write to him directly to highlight whatever BS you have instead of throwing them here.

[MiG-23MLD]

Originally Posted by Pinko

So what is the official announcement and not a news only, here is the example, which comes directly from the president of Sukhoi and he is promoting the co-operation between Sukhoi and Chinese partner.

http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080523/108160624.html



Flooggy, you can write to him directly to highlight whatever BS you have instead of throwing them here.

Pinko

Please man you are again doing my milk shake is better than yours,Rosoboronexport is the Russian defence export state corporation and posted the news of both the Mi-17 assembly in China and the illegal chinese copies of the Su-27 aka J-11B, you do not believe news that bother you and just believe the news you want to hear, who is more believeable You and Crobato who even no one knows you internationally as Russian media outlets or Pravda, ITARTASS or Rosoboroexport who posted news about the illegal Su-27 copies in china?

of course you are no one in the Media specially in russia since you do not even speak russian and much less you have any real authorization to write in Itartass or rosoboronexport or to say what rosoboronexport will post who are you no one important in the Russian Media

Now the only reason you say the Russian media is wrong is simply because you were claiming for years the J-11B was going to be another J-7 and Russia was not going to complaign, all your speculation has been proven wrong and now to save your reputation you try to claim the news of the illegal copies of the J-11B are no reliable or simply are misinformation why simply because you were claiming to be experts in the field of Chinese aviation and now this news prove you, you were wrong

[Pinko]

Originally Posted by MiG-23MLD

Pinko

Please man you are again doing my milk shake is better than yours,Rosoboronexport is the Russian defence export state corporation and posted the news of both the Mi-17 assembly in China and the illegal chinese copies of the Su-27 aka J-11B, you do not believe news that bother you and just believe the news you want to hear, who is more believeable You and Crobato who even no one knows you internationally as Russian media outlets or Pravda, ITARTASS or Rosoboroexport who posted news about the illegal Su-27 copies in china?

of course you are no one in the Media specially in russia since you do not even speak russian and much less you have any real authorization to write in Itartass or rosoboronexport or to say what rosoboronexport will post who are you no one important in the Russian Media

Then show us Rosoboronexport's official announcement not news, if you are not satisfied with Sukhoi

[MiG-23MLD]

Originally Posted by Pinko

Then show us Rosoboronexport's official announcement not news, if you are not satisfied with Sukhoi

Rosoboronexport posted the news, rosoboronexport press releases are only about international arms shows and are not related about daily news, however the news are posted in the media watch of rosoboronexport, Rosoboronexport is the Russian defence export state corporation and posted the news of both the Mi-17 assembly in China and the illegal chinese copies of the Su-27 aka J-11B in its media watch, Rosoborexport posts news that are true they would not post lies you are saying that Rosoboronexport posted lies so then the Mi-17 assembly of China is also a lie?


you are just following a loop and wrong and dishonest thinking it is not smart even if you post the emoticon with a little devil face smiling, it does not make your smarter for sure

[Pinko]

Originally Posted by MiG-23MLD

Rosoboronexport posted the news, rosoboronexport press releases are only about international arms shows and are not related about daily news, however the news are posted in the media watch of rosoboronexport, rosoorexport posts news that are true they would not post lies you are saying that rosobornexport posted lies so then the Mi-17 assembly of China is also a lie?


you are just following a loop and fail thinking it is not smart even if you post the emoticon with a little devil face smiling, it does not make your smarter for sure

Does the news quoted any authorized statement from Rosoboronexport? Or would you like to review your Wiki course on NEWS?

Even not clear on ABC, how to talk on Shakespeare?

[MiG-23MLD]

Originally Posted by Pinko

Does the news quoted any authorized statement from Rosoboronexport? Or would you like to review your Wiki course on NEWS?

Even not clear on ABC, how to talk on Shakespeare?

Since the news were posted by Rosoboronexport too, Rosoboronexport is also crediting the report as NEWS, therefore all the fallacies you and Crobato use to justify your reasoning have no base.

[crobato]

Originally Posted by star49

who knows anything aout S-400. It has been exported or evaluated. It is like saying that F-22 can use F-15C weopons. So it must be derivative. Same is with T-90. just compare price of T-72upgrade to T-90. It is different capability

If you don't know anything about the S-400, what makes you think its brand new then?

SHOW PROOF OF THAT CLAIM.

name me a single part of Su-35 that is same as Su-27? u cannot even manufacture Su-35 in Su-27 factory. J-11B is same Su-27SK

Bull. The Su-35 has the same basic airframe design as the Su-27 even if the parts underneath has been changed, lightened and reinforced. That's the same banana as the J-11B, which is also reengineered from the inside.

But the outside design and aerodynamics are still basically the same.

where is that coming from. They are going directly into 0.45n. EU is at 0.32nm in 2006.

Read your articles. They're only planning in the future, which is saying they don't have it now. Everyone talks about advancing to smaller units, but only few have the money for it.

Show me something they have NOW, not the usual Planning to Invest balony.

In 2004 80% of components?

Practically the entire airframe is made in China, sans engines and avionics.

this is from 2004.

Yeah, delivered like 10 planes.

I guess u havent added those 26 SU-27SM. between 2004-06 period. MKM was slow because of integration. Everything will be completed this year. all 24 to Venzueal completed this year. 26 Su-27SM completed this year. 16MKA completed this year. Not to mention 10 Su-34. and sending kits of atleast 16MKI.

Su-27SM are upgrades. They're not made brand new but by converting existing aircraft.

Kits do not mean completed aircraft. You only collect parts from different contractors and put them in a box.

Only two Su-30MKA are delivered.

5 Su-34 are expected to be delivered this year.

HAL is assembling? once u have parts in place even Indonesia can assemble it.

More than just assembling, some parts are made in India. Assembling the plane is the greatest part of the manual labor.

In weopons R&D and production Russia share is far greater. Russia energy prices are far below the market price. lowest world taxes but biggest budget surplus in the world.
I am not even going into material prices. Real budget of Russia will be well $120B. translating PPP will be alteast $360B.

That's all BS. In 2007, Russia purchased like 9 billion worth of equipment for its own armed forces.

that are official figures.

inflation is double digit but wages growth far outstrip inflation so they dont have fight inflation like other countries thats why putin has 80% popularity.

More BS from FallenStar49. The reason why you need wage growth is to keep up with inflation and the wage growth reinforces the inflation cycle, creating a nonstop Catch 22 cycle of inflation.

China only has 7%---7%--inflation for this year. Russia has inflation by the hundred percent in the nineties and stabilized to double digit inflation every year.

fact remains that ur just beginning. come back when u reaches 80 figure. U cannot even make 10 J-11B per year after 10 years of licensing.

Pure BS. In February 2008, we have pictures of J-11B no. 12 and 13 intended for the 1st Division.

there is 3 way contract.

Which makes it even worst for the Russians.

from where u got this information. by the time MRCA reaches India it will be atleast a decade with huge mixture of components from different countries. Barak has been frozen. why is more A-50 with double the price of previous one? Tu-142 will remain in IN service for long time.

MRCA won't be Russian, simple as that. India continues to shop, elsewhere from Russia.

they are introducing new methods of business that they want to impose on rest of the world. Rest of world has to live with it just like China.

New methods of business? Like breaking contracts?

[crobato]

Originally Posted by MiG-23MLD

Since the news were posted by Rosoboronexport too, Rosoboronexport is also crediting the report as NEWS, therefore all the fallacies you and Crobato use to justify your reasoning have no base.

"News" is not announcement. Ross is collecting those only as news reports related to arms trade, and they're not being particular. News collected in a website does not necessarily mean it reflects the opinion of the owner of the website, much like a TV ad does not mean it is the opinion of the TV station owner. You sure don't know how the media works, do you?

For legal action, you need a formal announcement.

Where is this formal announcement?