RAF Bomber Command campaign medal petition

[Mogggy]

For the lads who died in first world war numbers, and who were never granted a campaign medal.

See HERE

You must be a British citizen to sign the petition.

[alertken]

Thank you Mod. for bringing this here. I hope we will all sign up, as I have.

Strategic Bombing was invented by British (Liberal and Conservative) Statesmen 1918 (junior, as Minister of Munitions: Churchill). The plan for 1919 was Standard,US- and Harland-built HP 0/400, HP V.1500, Vickers Vimy to vault the trenches and break supply to them. Those that funded the Independent Air Force thought that prospect encouraged the Central Powers to throw in the towel.

In 1932 League of Nations set about trying to outlaw bombing, but settled for constraining its efficacy by imposing 6,600lb. tare weight limit. In 1933 Stalin was told the thrust of the new German Chancellor's book, ignored the League, and put Tupolev onto 4 Motors, before sending him to the Gulag. His Pe-8 opened Heavy bombing, on Berlin, 7 August,1941. Czechs read it too and funded AWA to produce a big beast to hit Berlin (to be Whitley). UK feared "this lamentable weapon", distinctively a Threat to London, fat “cow tied up to attract the beast of prey” where millions would be dehoused.

So, to get in first, we issued the 1936 Specs. which became Stirling/Halifax/Lancaster. By June,1940 UK Chiefs of Staff were very pleased they had been ordered into production in 1938, and advised “immediate action to ‘destroy all upon which the German war machine rests - the economy which feeds it, the civilian morale which sustains it, the supplies which nourish it and hopes of victory which give it courage’. All (by) blockade, by air bombardment and by organised risings in the occupied territories”. None of this had been anything to do with WSC, but after Dunkirk he funded Force to “pulverize the entire industry and scientific structure on which (Nazi)war effort and economic life depend”. By 2/3/44 SecState for War told the Commons: “RAF programme is already employing more than the Army(’s) I dare say that there are as many engaged in making heavy bombers as on (all Army work.)” The builders and operators of the Strategic Bombing Force, and their Commander, were discharging the duties laid upon them by our elected Leaders. The intent was to stifle production and transport. It did so, greatly enhancing the health of Allied fighting men.

Any better (cheaper, quicker in effect) Plan would have been very welcome. A bleater must produce that alternative before deriding what was done. He must also contemplate He.177 having worked and been sent to Coventry in 1941, or the slaves having produced V1/V2 in 1942. It is moral cowardice now to visit opprobrium upon brave servants of their Nations.
Sources: WSC,WW2/II,Cassell,1949,P567; J.Terraine,Right of the Line,P260; M.M.Postan,Br.War Prodn Official History, HMSO,1952,P122; A.Tooze,Wages of Destruction,A.Lane, 2006,P401;R.Overy,Why the Allies Won,Cape,1995,P.128

[Wessex Fan]

Originally Posted by alertken

"The plan for 1919 was Standard,US- and Harland-built HP 0/400, HP V.1500, Vickers Vimy to vault the trenches and break supply to them. Those that funded the Independent Air Force thought that prospect encouraged the Central Powers to throw in the towel."

Point of information on this one:

Harland & Wolff of Belfast provided Handley Page with design and production facilities at the companies Queens Island site, for the design and manufacture of the V1500 prototypes. Due to facilities at Aldergrove not being completed in time these aircraft journeyed to Cricklewood by sea and rail.

Subsequently a small number of production aircraft did fly from Acceptance Park No 16 (Now RAF Aldergrove), no other heavy bombers were build in Belfast during that period.

Given our current involvement in Afghanistan it is interesting to note that the only V1500 to drop a bomb in anger did so against the Afghans!

As regards a Campaign Medal for the veterans of Bomber Command sign the petition, it is a national scandal that one was never awarded!


Cheers

[Moggy C]

Originally Posted by alertken

Thank you Mod. for bringing this here.

Actually not me, a cheeky imitator

In fact Mogggy is welcome here, particularly with such an important first posting.

I shall allow it to float whilst contributions make it bob up and down the front page, I will then sticky it for a short period.

Moggy (The real thing)

[JDK]

Originally Posted by alertken

I hope we will all sign up, as I have.

Would like to, but can't.

You must be a British citizen or resident to sign the petition.

As a significant part of Bomber Command came from Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, et al, (all part of the Empire and Commonwealth) plus from Poland, Czechoslovakia, France, Belgium, Holland, Ireland and more, the Parliamentary requirement of British citizenship for the pollsters is another insult to those non-Britons who served in Bomber Command.

[MarkG]

Originally Posted by JDK

...the Parliamentary requirement of British citizenship for the pollsters is another insult to those non-Britons who served in Bomber Command.

Oh, for heavens sake James, no it isn't. It's merely a side-effect of the mechanism by which this generic e-petition system works on the number10.gov.uk website.

Again, it's a generic system clearly intended to be used for petitions raised for the attention of the UK Government for issues affecting the UK. Therefore it makes perfect sense to allow only British citizens or residents (i.e. British voters - the people it affects) to vote. A quick look reveals a petition to make St. Davids Day a National Holiday in Wales (which I have also signed!) - would you have Czechs, Poles etc. polling on that as well?

No doubt if a petition mechanism were to be devised specifically for a Bomber Command medal then it would allow voting from all the countries that participated in the campaign.

For my own view, I think it's scandalous that no medal has ever been awarded so I've signed the petition.

[JDK]

Originally Posted by MarkG

Oh, for heavens sake James, no it isn't. It's merely a side-effect of the mechanism by which this generic e-petition system works on the number10.gov.uk website.

Thanks, Mark, I'm fully aware of the reason - that's why I said: "Parliamentary requirement of British citizenship for the pollsters".

In the case of Bomber Command the 'generic' nature of the petition is, IMHO inappropriate. You don't think it's a problem; I do, as it's at a stroke removed the potential input of who knows how many thousand people.

Beside that, it certainly enervates the potential of the petition - as a correspondent of several non-UK historic aviation publications, and associated with several museums whose forces were an integral part of Bomber Command I could do something - but I can't, and no, I'm not starting a new petition.

I think the 'for heaven's sake' might be better expressed by the ex-Bomber Command crews I talk to in Australia; the men at RCAF Trenton I'll be visiting in January; except they're used to being let down.

[MarkG]

I didn't say I thought it wasn't a problem and it is, in fact, inappropriate. However, it's the only mechanism available on the website. Surely that's better than nothing?

My point was purely that it's highly inapropriate, inaccurate and insulting in itself to say that the means by which this petition is being conducted, with all good intentions, is "another insult to those non-Britons who served in Bomber Command".

[JDK]

Hi Mark,

Originally Posted by MarkG

I didn't say I thought it wasn't a problem and it is, in fact, inappropriate.

If you 'didn't say you thought it wasn't' what were your trying to say? Don't worry, just a leg pull.

However, it's the only mechanism available on the website. Surely that's better than nothing?

Depends on your point of view. "The RCAF attached 14 bomber squadrons to the RAF, including 6 Group, and by the end of the war, almost a quarter of Bomber Command's personnel were RCAF personnel.[1]" (Wikipedia.)

Using a poll that excludes 25% of the constituency (as a minimum, if you consider all the other foreign nationals) strikes me as a major potential problem. The intent might be good, the methodology is certainly flawed.

Mention must also be made of the extremely high casualty rate suffered by RAF Bomber Command crews, who suffered 55,573 dead, 4,000 wounded and 9,784 prisoner. These fatalities included over 38,000 RAF aircrew (of all nationalities), 9,900 Royal Canadian Air Force personnel, and over 1,500 aircrew from the European occupied countries. It is illustrative that members of the Australian squadrons of Bomber Command equalled only two percent of Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) personnel, but the 4,050 killed represented 23% of the total number of RAAF personnel killed in action (5,367) during World War II. No. 460 Squadron RAAF, which had an aircrew establishment of about 200, experienced 1,018 combat deaths during 1942-45 and was therefore effectively wiped out five times over.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Bomber_Command

I'm fully aware most readers here are aware of how many non-Britons served in Bomber Command. I'd like to add I don't value the contribution of the Britons in Bomber Command less or more.

My point was purely that it's highly inappropriate, inaccurate and insulting in itself to say that the means by which this petition is being conducted, with all good intentions, is "another insult to those non-Britons who served in Bomber Command".

Quick to take offence? You or me? Perhaps both? Either way, neither of us is entitled to speak for the men of Bomber Command; and I don't dispute the intent's good, it's a pity that a significant percentage of the constituency is excluded for no better reason than using a government designed form (which is all it is) rather than doing the job, if I may be blunt, properly. You don't HAVE to use the form. There's no good reason (in this case) to limit the petition to British nationals only. It's not my loss, it's the chances of success that are compromised. It's not appropriate for us to hijack a well intentioned thread for this discussion, so I guess we'll better agree to differ.

I'd like to sign the petition, but can't. I'd like to disseminate the petition to thousands of readers, many of whom would sign, but there's no point.

I would be delighted if Bomber Command crews were awarded a medal. I'm also aware of what most of them would say about it too.

Regards,

[Malcolm McKay]

Originally Posted by JDK

Would like to, but can't. As a significant part of Bomber Command came from Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, et al, (all part of the Empire and Commonwealth) plus from Poland, Czechoslovakia, France, Belgium, Holland, Ireland and more, the Parliamentary requirement of British citizenship for the pollsters is another insult to those non-Britons who served in Bomber Command.

Damned right

[tangmere]

Whilst I have every sympathy with this petition, and have signed, it isnt exactly right to say it is the "only" campaign for which a specific medal wasn't issued. In fact, technically, no medal as such was awarded for the Battle of Britain - just a clasp to the 39-45 star. Even there one finds injustices, really, not least of all in the arbitary dates of 10 July to 31st October. That meant, for example, that Squadron Leader George Lott, shot down and blinded in one eye on the 9th July, was not a Battle of Britain pilot. Equally, for example, "Archie" McKellar killed on 1st November does not appear on the Battle of Britain Roll of Honour and all due to dates set by the Air Ministry!! True, criteria for qualification will always mean some miss out but in the case of the Battle of Britain, for example, it would not have been unreasonable to extend that from the date of withdrawal from France up to perhaps the date of the German invasion of Russia. And what about the Battle of France? No medal there either! Malta? Most bomber crews will have had the Air Crew Europe or France & Germany Stars. Taking it a stage further...what about the injustice of awarding VC's to Garland and Grey (both officers) but not LAC Reynolds their crewman? I could go on. The point is, sadly, that too much time has passed to put these things right and issue medals to those who may have been overlooked. I dont want to be a killjoy, but it aint gonna happen. Andy

[bc_heritage]

Can anyone tell me who Stuart Burbridge is? If you are already amongst us come forth please. I have yet to look at the petition properly yet, but will of course sign! Note we are new to the Aviation Forum, so my apology if I should already know this info.

I would side with Tangmere on this. During the research into my families BC History, relatives agree that a medal should have been struck, and the same goes for Veterans too.

In my mind remembrance is the key. My personal view is that there should have been a rather grander National Memorial to ALL those that served with RAF Bomber Command, those of the Commonwealth and Free Forces Squadrons. In my simplistic mind too many Battle of Britian Memorials to the few, and not enough for the Many. No offence to those that served in the Battle of Britain, a balance is due I believe.

Thats my fivers worth, before I get a Hurricane or Spit on me tail!!

Good luck Mr Stuart Burbridge! Come Forth and let Ye be known!

Oh, and a Merry Christmas from all of us here at BCH to everyone too!

Tony
Secretary
BOMBER COMMAND HERITAGE
http://www.bc-heritage.org
"...our Journey Together."

[SHORTSBRO]

Tony,

Could not agree more with your comments. In my opinion too much emphasis on the Battle of Britain and the Few. Although richly deserved any BoB related subject is almost certainly going to generate the media and public interest.

Sadly the sacrifice and contribution of Bomber Command will always be a subject shrouded in controversy especially in these present times when the bomber offensive and particularly the role played by RAF Bomber Command is constantly scrutinised, judged and underestimate. I appreciate that given the role of Bomber Command and the stigma that seems to attach itself it would be hard to generate any interest by the vast majority of the general public especially in this country given the present climate.

Former MP Lord Norman Tebbit and his crusade with the recent Battle of Britain Monument impressed me recently, could not a similar high profile politician not be approached in a similar fashion, or is it not PC.

I personally do not think the various high profile Bomber Command Associations do enough to promote the role of Bomber Command especially over the past decade. I will not point the finger but I feel strongly that without a strong and forthright and HONEST approach any Bomber Command related medal is bound to fail. I have added my name more in desperation than anything else.

Rant over, I must stress these are personal views.

[Mogggy]

a cheeky imitator

Sorry Moggy, no offence intended.

I've operated under the moniker Moggy on various flight sim boards for a few years. It was the nickname my father had in the wartime RAF and has been an honorific for his two sons.

I could change the username to "MoggyMorris" if that would be better???

[Moggy C]

Not at all, stay as you are.



Moggy

[Hurrifan]

Is there any way for those of us from outside the Uk to do something to help?

Visiting individual war graves gives me cause for thought and reflection, but a visit to Durnbach a few years ago was one of the most intense and i have to say emotional things i have done . So many young lives gone, from so many different parts of the world. So many names from the books of my chldhood, names of men i regard as my heroes.

They deserve every damn bit of recognition we can get them.

[grounded]

I must agree with tangmere on this issue, if we are going to issue a medal it is hardly fair on many other well deserving elements of world war 2, one extremely dangerous undertaking was flying the hump, another, bomb disposal and mine clearance, No, I feel it is far to late though I am well aware of what they went through, and of course their losses. You will also find the surviving aircrew, given the chance, would do it all again, I only heard one complaining, he was on 614 squadron flying Halifaxes and Liberators as target markers from Italy, and was not amused to be denied the pathfinder badge.
As for ground crew, you go where you are told, and do what you are trained to do, just the same as a rifleman in the Hurtgen forest, or a stoker on a minesweeper.

[Janie]

Originally Posted by Hurrifan

Is there any way for those of us from outside the UK to do something to help?

Absolutely. Email every British citizen you know who might like to help and send them the link to the petition.

[Janie]

Originally Posted by MarkG

... would you have Czechs, Poles etc. polling on that as well?

Ouch! That is a little unfair to pick out two specific nationalities. I have quite an affinity with anyone European. I hope what you meant was that anyone who does not have voting rights (can I word that better?) in the U.K. should not really be making a decision on how the U.K. budget is spent. However, if a foreigner felt really strongly about the British constitution they could always petition a supranational organisation. Just ask Bob Geldolf.

The EU, OPEC, NATO etc are all run by 'foreigners' who have a say in what the U.K. does.

Besides the petition website is still in beta test. The Government doesn't have to take any notice really. It does make for some fun market research for them. Just have a look at some of the petitions that are stark raving bonkers.

[BlueRobin]

Only seven days to go...