Potential for the A-50/F-50 Golden Eagle?

[WACHENR0DER]

The more I read about this aircraft, the more I am fascinated with it's potential as a light combat aircraft.

To start off here are the latest specs via ACIG.

Estimated Cost for the combat version A-50:
$20-22 million per unit

Maximum take off weight
29,700 lbs

Empty Weight
14,285 lbs

Max Thrust (F404 variant)
17,000 lbs

Dimensions
Length: 13,13 m
Height: 4,90 m
Span: 9,17 m
Max Speed at Sea Level
Mach 1.5

Max Ceiling, 48,500ft

Rate of climb
37,000 ft/min

-3/+8G

It would seem that it has a better thrust to weight ratio than the Gripen, it's climb rate is certainly better. What I'm interested in is clarifying if the t/w ratio is indeed superior (other sources) as well as the range (there were rumors that it is also superior, but I cannot clarify this).

What makes me interested in this aircraft is that it appears to be what a light weight fighter should be, cheap! For a new build aircraft it's only other contemporaries are the FC-1. The Ching-Kuo, which is similar in performance and "did it" much earlier, is very unlikely to be exported, and it seems that India may not export the LCA or at least for not some time based on the posts below.

In comparison to the Gripen, it may offer better thrust and perhaps even better range, but most importantly, at a better cost. With the Gripen costing as much as the heavier F-16 Block 50-52, based on contracts and offers in Europe (ranging from 45m - 53m).

What the Gripen does have that it's been out already and has been integrated with many exportable weapons such as Israeli, American and Swedish weapons so far.

However the Golden Eagle will be using an American Radar (APG-67) and has been displayed with Mavericks and sidewinders and there are already plans to implement it with the AMRAAM which should not be too difficult.

In Terms of Markets.. the Gripen has been popular with Eastern European nations (Czech, Hungary), and has scored only one order outside of Europe, that being South Africa, while it is currently competing in a Brazilian deal that seems likely to go to Sukhoi.

The ROKAF has finally ordered several Golden Eagles, and the type has captured Israel and Vietnam's interest. With the latter perhaps using it to replace the aging MiG-21s.

If some kind of networking capability is added to it, ala Gripen, and it's cost kept to under 25m.. it could lead to a great defensive aircraft that could be bought in numbers

any thoughts on it's potential?


http://www.afbase.com/bbs/data/comm/y2k3010_17.jpg

http://www.afbase.com/bbs/data/mypic/1068447938.jpg

[Yahoo25]

It would seem that it has a better thrust to weight ratio than the Gripen, it's climb rate is certainly better

TWR is not every thing.
how its climb rate is better than Gripen? Gripen flight performance is more in class of EF,Rafale and Su-35.
Swedes have also improved the engine with 40% components made in Sweden. weopon load is greater at 5300KG and is continous 9G machine.





GRIPEN PILOT REPORT

Gripen Key to Sweden's Air Defense Force Quick turnaround time, improved information warfare capability give Saab fighter an edge against larger foes

DAVID M. NORTH

6 December 1999
Aviation Week & Space Technology
68
Vol. 151, No. 23
English
© 1999 McGraw-Hill, Inc.

Sweden is constructing one of the most effective air defense structures in the world using its air force's Saab Gripen multirole fighter, Saab/Ericsson Erieye airborne early warning platform, tactical information data link, and a modern command and control system.

While the Swedish air force has had its tactical information data link system in operation since the mid-1980s, it is the replacement of the Saab Viggen with the Gripen and the addition of the Ericsson-developed early-warning system on a Saab 340B that has addressed modern information warfare and made the service a fourth-generation operational force. While the cost of the air national defense system is a large part of Sweden's military budget, it does not bear the high total cost of similar systems either being evaluated or installed by other countries.

I was fortunate to be invited to visit the F7 Wing at Satenas in late October to fly the Gripen. The air base had been chosen to be the primary training base for Draken and Viggen pilots transitioning to the Gripen. There are two JAS 39 training squadrons here, and the first 16 Draken pilots from the F10 Wing are undergoing training to be the nucleus of the first operational Gripen squadron at Angelholm. However, both JAS 39 training squadrons are considered to be combat operational by the air force.

The training facility here is housed in a ``Y''-shaped building adjacent to the Gripen ramp and hangars. It is specifically designed for training operations, with two full-mission simulators, four multimission simulators and numerous study rooms in one wing. The squadron offices and flight operations are contained in another wing, while associated units and the ground mobile command and control units are in the remaining wing. The facility is one of the best of its kind I have seen in military operations.

Transitioning pilots will receive 5-6 months of training in the Gripen here and then return to their respective squadrons for a year of advanced tactical training. New pilots joining the F7 Wing after a year of primary flight training and some 240 flight hours will train for one year in F7, receiving 40 hr. in the simulator and 62 hr. in the Gripen prior to going to a squadron for more advanced tactical training. The first group of these new pilots is expected at Satenas late next year.

Prior to the flight, I had to be fitted for an exposure or ``poopy suit'' as well as lower and jacket g-suits, all designed by the Swedish air force for its own operations. Because of the cold water temperatures in and around Sweden, an exposure suit is worn most months. The suit, once donned, is quite comfortable.

I was also able to sit in one of the four multimission trainers (MMT) for 30 min. to get acquainted with the Gripen cockpit. The cockpit briefing was given by Lt. Col. Bjorn Johansson, an air force test pilot attached to the Swedish Defense Material Administration (FMV). I was to fly with him the following day in the Gripen.

The Loral MMT is equipped with a Evans & Sutherland three-screen vision display, a head-up display (HUD) and the Gripen cockpit. The MMT can be linked with the dome simulators and other MMTs to show scenarios involving four aircraft. The cockpit is designed with three multifunction displays in a ``Y''or left, right and lower display arrangement, much like the Boeing F/A-18 series of multirole aircraft. An upfront controller is below the HUD, but a good adaptation of the hands-on-throttle-and-stick (HOTAS) concept eliminates having to reach up and use the up-front controller.

The left multifunction display (MFD) is used for flight data, including the HUD and defensive aids and sensor images that might be shown on the HUD. The right MFD is used to show the image from the Ericsson PS-05/A radar, as well as other images from a Flir or reconnaissance pod. Neither of these two capabilities are under contract for the Gripen at this time. The lower MFD contains the tactical picture shown on the horizontal situation display format.

MMT time was very valuable, and I had difficulty differentiating all of the functions of the radar, target acquisition, speed control and different map scales controlled from the throttle and throttle guard as my time ran out. While Saab has investigated voice activation of many of these functions, it is not a high priority program for the Swedish air force. The use of a trigger guard and a single trigger on the control stick to launch air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons was much easier to absorb in my training.

I also had a problem distinguishing the symbols shown on the radar and tactical displays for targets, threats and wingmen. This was related to my recent lack of practice in evaluating tactical air-to-air situations as well as the monochromatic display.

Symbols for wingmen are shown with ``tails,'' the number of tails representing the wingman's number. Their altitude is shown behind the symbol, and threats are shown as designated by the pilot, the wingman or ground control. I also found it hard to get accustomed to the symbology that designates target priorities. My slowness in comprehending all that was happening in the tactical area could be overcome, I learned, with more simulator time.

To further help the pilot's situational awareness, Ericsson has developed larger, color 6.2 X 8.2-in. displays to replace the smaller monochromatic ones in the existing Gripens. The newer displays should be available in the third batch of Gripens to be delivered beginning in the 2001-02 time frame. The day after my Gripen flight, I flew in a dome simulator at Saab's Linkoping facility. The simulator had the new displays, and I found that my ability to comprehend what was occurring in the tactical displays was greatly increased.

Doing the walkaround while the fighter was in the hanger gave me the opportunity to observe just how small the single-seat Gripen really is. If you take a Lockheed F-16C and reduce its wingspan by some 3.5 ft., length by 3 ft. and height by almost 2 ft., you have the JAS 39A. The Gripen's empty gross weight of 14,600 lb. is some 4,000 lb. lighter than the F-16C.

Seeing the Gripen with its access panels open also underlined the compact design of its interior. Because of the dense interior, I was surprised when Saab test pilot Magnus Ljungberg explained that the inflight refueling probe for the export version of the aircraft fits over the right engine intake without changing the aircraft's fuselage. This is one of the modifications being developed with BAe Systems for the export version of the Gripen. The extended probe is located approximately 90 deg. to the pilot, and Ljungberg said that refueling was quite easy.

There was clear access to maintenance panels from the hangar floor. The Gripen was designed by Saab to be repaired easily and quickly, with a low life cycle cost.

The Swedish concept of using dispersed bases for flying operations puts a unique demand on maintenance and reliability. The Gripen is equipped with a maintenance fault localization and diagnostic system that helps speed repair work. The bases often consist of a road with a turnaround area and some shelter under trees. The crew required to handle a Gripen at one of these dispersed bases is one officer and seven conscripts. F7 pilots claim that the ground crew is able to refuel and rearm the Gripen in less than 10 min. for an air-to-air mission and less than 20 min. for an air-to-ground mission.

With more than 14,000 missions flown in the Gripen, the air force is finding that the new aircraft is requiring at least 40% less maintenance man-hours and 50% of the fuel usage of the Viggen.

The following morning, the day of the scheduled flight, there was a low overcast, fog and rain and the only suitable alternate was to the far north. So we we did as many pilots had done before us--sat and drank coffee, discussed previous flying operations and waited for the weather to get better. By noon, the conditions had improved--the visibility had increased, and there were suitable alternates, although the overcast was still well below 500 ft.

Johansson and I walked to JAS 39B No. 802 in front of the training facility, while a second flight crew manned another JAS 39B. The two-seat aircraft are owned by FMV (F7 is not scheduled to receive a two-seater until late next year).

The first impression on reaching the two aircraft being prepared to fly was the noise level of the auxiliary power units. Saab is replacing the Gripen's Microturbo units with quieter Sundstrand APUs during the next year.

I took the rear seat while Johansson occupied the front seat. The two-seat Gripen is 2.2 ft. longer than the single-seat version, and the internal gun has been removed. Fuel capacity is the same for both aircraft. Unlike the Dassault Rafale, there is no HUD in the back seat, although HUD and video information can be depicted on the flight data display. I found that once strapped into the Martin-Baker ejection seat, with leg and arm restraints attached, the cockpit was very comfortable. The functions I needed to operate on either side panel were easily accessible. The recline angle of the seat is less than that of a F-16, but more than that of the Viggen and the Boeing Hornet.

THE SWEDISH APPROACH to fuel capacity and fuel usage is quite simple--when the internal fuel capacity is full, the gauge registers as 100% in the cockpit. There is no fuel quantity in kilograms or pounds, nor is there a fuel flow meter. Internal fuel is approximately 5,000 lb., and when a full center drop tank is flown, it shows 140%. Fuel bingo also is shown in percentage remaining. While we were carrying a center drop tank, there was no fuel in the tank. Ramp weight of the JAS 39B was close to 24,000 lb.

JOHANSSON STARTED the single Volvo Aero RM12 turbofan engine, and following a short after start and system check, we taxied to the active runway. He deactivated some of the radar modes and the defensive electronic countermeasure systems which were deemed to be sensitive. He also demonstrated the agility of the aircraft on the ground by using the nosewheel steering to make several 360-deg. turns. This capability is especially necessary when operating from dispersed bases.

Johansson advanced power and acceleration was especially brisk in afterburner, with a takeoff roll of close to 1,700 ft. (518 meters) Once the landing gear was raised, the close-coupled canard-delta configured aircraft was clean with no other inputs needed. We entered the overcast at about 400 ft. and came out in the clear about 8,000 ft. The single-seat Gripen has the ability to climb to 33,000 ft. in less than 2 min.

Once leveled near 20,000 ft., Johansson gave me control of the aircraft. He then proceeded to demonstrate many of the features of the Gripen in the air-to-air role and the air-to-ground roles. One of the most impressive features of the aircraft is the ability to remain in a passive radar mode while targets are fed to the aircraft by data link from either a wingman or a ground controller. A ground controller in our area designated our wingman some 30 naut. mi. away as a target, and his altitude appeared behind the target symbol. While still passive, we choose the Raytheon Amraam for launch and fired the simulated missile for a hit.

The Gripen is currently capable of carrying four Amraams on the underwing stations, and a center fuselage station launcher is under study that would be capable of carrying two more Amraams. Full integration of the radar missile into air force operations was accomplished in April.

Early warning and battle management for the Swedish military has been further enhanced by the introduction of the Ericsson Erieye early-warning system mounted in a Saab 340B turboprop. The active phased array pulse Doppler radar offers an increased range of land-based radar out to 450 km. (243 naut. mi.), and a detection range for small fighter type aircraft of close to 350 km. (189 naut. mi). The Erieye uses S-band radar for a sharp and narrow main beam with low sidelobes. This configuration also is more resistant to jamming. The Swedish air force has four Erieye in operation, while two will be loaned to the Greek air force for several years prior to their receiving similar Ericsson Erieye systems mounted on Embraer 145s. The Swedish air force will eventually operate a total of six Erieye aircraft in two operational squadrons.

Johansson then identified a ground target that showed up on our multisensor display, that had been designated by our wingman and data-linked to us. Additional information from our wingman, included his fuel state, weapons available, targets selected and the view through his HUD, all appeared on the multisensor display. We selected a simulated RBS-15 antiship missile and launched it some 30 naut. mi. away from the ship in a harbor on Lake Vanern near Satenas.

THE PS-05/A RADAR was turned on and the antenna removed from its near horizontal park position. In the air-to-ground mode, the resolution mapping of the lake was quite good, but it had the capability to be better. The radar has ground/sea moving target indication and tracking, as well as air-to-ground ranging. In the air-to-air mode, the Gripen's radar has an all-altitude look-down capability and can track up to 10 targets. Its track-while-search feature in the automatic mode assures good situational awareness, and the mission computer predicts the greatest threat to the aircraft.

Ericsson is looking to the U.S. and France to help in the development of an active electronically scanning antenna for the Gripen. A contract for joint development is planned for next June with the intent of having a demonstration of the new radar in 3-4 years.

With the radar still in the air-to-air mode, we picked out our wingman/target at near our 10 o'clock position and switched to the heat-seeking missile mode. While we did not receive a tone, the wingman was well within the range of the Sidewinder-type missile. The range circle around the pipper showed maximum, no escape and minimum range of the missile's envelope, although I still could not see our wingman. Johansson attempted to point out our wingman passing across our nose and moving to the one o'clock position. A helmet-mounted sighting system is in development for the Gripen, and a prototype is being flown at Saab in its dome simulator.

Another virtue of the Gripen is its small size, a not-to-be-underestimated positive factor when it comes to within visual range combat. I had difficulty picking the wingman out over the overcast until he reached our two o'clock position low. I rolled in on the wingman, and switching to guns, saw the symbol on the gunsight indicating hits on the other Gripen. While Johansson had to coach me through the switching of radar displays and weapon selection, I realized Saab and the Swedish air force have achieved a low pilot workload for the combat scenario. Compared with other multirole aircraft I have flown recently, the situational awareness and workload in the Gripen appeared to have the edge for intuitive movements and simplicity.

A session in the planning and analysis room after the flight showed all of the parameters of our flight from a digital recorder. The tape verified our missile and gun hits, as well as indicated generic maximum and no-escape ranges. The tape records all button or switch activations as well as flight parameters, weapon delivery envelope and results, and ongoing tactical situation. Four aircraft can be flown together in the evaluation scenario.

I DID NOT MAKE a very good rendezvous with the wingman, missing our closing rate by a large factor, even though his speed was shown on my airspeed indicator. The airspeed is shown in km./hr. and the altitude in meters. While the conversion was my problem, not the Swedes, I had some difficulty in adjusting to the layout of the altimeter, where an even 1,000-ft., (or even-meter) altitude is not shown by a needle arm at the 12 o'clock position, as it is on a regular altimeter.

Flying formation on the wingman was quite simple. This is when I realized that the triple digital flight control system in the Gripen made flying easy. The position of the throttle and the stick mounted on a pedestal below the instrument panel were very comfortable to operate, making another point for good machine-man interface. The Gripen's stick is designed for movement, some 9 deg. forward, 13 deg. aft and 7 deg. left and right.

Stick movement became more of a factor later when I did a full-throw aileron roll at Mach 0.79. Roll rate was on the order of 240-deg./sec, Johansson said. The altitude was near 15,000 ft. at the time. An initial 6g pullup to a loop was done at 450 kt., and I came out at 10 deg. off heading. A 6.5g turning pull in military power showed the excellent turning capability of the Gripen. Sustained turn performance of the 9g aircraft is given at 20-deg./sec. As Johansson said, the delta wing Viggen seemed to push the air around in a turn, while the Gripen cuts through the air almost effortlessly. The aircraft also provides a very steady gun platform, which I learned as I flew some steep gun attacks against the top of clouds.

The clean lines of the Gripen were apparent as Johansson and I had to keep track of my power setting and speed so as not to break Mach 1.0. The Gripen will do Mach 1.05 at low level in military power. Advertised maximum speeds for the Gripen are Mach 1.2 at low level and close to Mach 2 at high altitude. Maximum aerodynamic speed of the Gripen has been calculated to be 1,400 kph. or 755 kt.

Johansson said that there have been no problems with the Volvo RM12 engine in the Gripen development or during its some 14,000 missions. The RM12 is a cooperative engine program with General Electric based on the F404 engine in the Boeing F/A-18 Hornet.

The Gripen has been taken to a deep stall, where power was moved continuously between flight idle and military power without any stall stagnation problems. The engine also has operated well at 160-deg. angle of attack and 90 deg. of slideslip, Johansson said.

Volvo redesigned the fan in the F404 engine to give a 10% increase in airflow, with a 6% increase in thrust while increasing the turbine temperature slightly for the RM12 design. The front frame of the engine also was modified to better withstand bird strikes. Volvo also is working on a new full-authority digital engine control (FADEC) and a redesigned afterburner flame holder for the RM12 engine. The 18,400 lb. of thrust in afterburner gives the aircraft excellent acceleration characteristics, and Saab says the Gripen will go from Mach 0.5 to Mach 1.1 in approximately 30 sec. at low altitude.

Similar to other aircraft of like design, such as the French Rafale, test pilots have found that the Gripen is spin-resistant. The aircraft has been put in spins during testing, but some of the control laws and the spin recovery mode in the flight control system had to be modified. The spin recovery mode in the Gripen first stops roll oscillation, then yaw, before pitching the nose of the aircraft down.

By this time, the fuel remaining in the Gripen was reading 40%, and Johansson indicated the steering cue on my HUD display that would get me back to Satenas. A descent was made in the clouds to 800 meters (2,624 ft.) at 500 kph. (270 kt.). The Swedish air force uses a tactical landing system, similar to that of the U.S. Navy, with a slight offset from the runway, Johansson said. At 600 meters (1,970 ft.) and 450 kph. (243 kt.), the autothrottle was engaged by depressing a button on the throttle. The symbology for the approach was easy to follow, although I found myself looking for a rate of descent indication. There is not one installed in the Gripen, because the pilots believed it was not needed.

The aircraft was very steady on the approach and aircraft response matched control input at the lower speeds. Once we broke out below the overcast at some 100 meters (328 ft.), Johansson took the aircraft and landed at near 130 kt. with a angle of attack near 13 deg. for the final approach.

All three landing gear have carbon brakes installed and an antiskid system. On landing, the leading edge of the canard goes down and the elevons go up and the fuselage mounted speedbrakes extend. Stopping distance was about 600 meters (1,970 ft.), although Johansson did not apply maximum braking.

WHILE NOT ABLE TO MAKE the landing in the Gripen, I did land on a road in the high-fidelity Gripen dome simulator at Saab, and found the landing characteristics exactly as I had observed at Satenas. The aircraft was stable on approach, and landing without flare at 130 kt., the Gripen was easily stopped within 600 meters. All in all, I had flown approximately one hour in the Gripen from blocks to blocks. This is a fairly standard flight with internal fuel and more than ample reserves, Johansson said.

There are a number of upgrades and new equipment planned for the Gripen. After flying the aircraft with its smaller monochromatic displays, the larger color Ericsson displays, as flown in the dome simulator, will make a big difference to improve the pilot's situational awareness. An OBOGS on-board oxygen generating system will replace the traditional oxygen system in later aircraft. A new inertial navigation system with GPS also is under development. An integrated infrared search and track system is being developed for the Gripen by Saab Dynamics, and it appears that an advanced electronically scanned array (AESA) radar will eventually replace the Ericsson PS-05A radar.

While I was not able to fly the Gripen for a low level flight, my impression is that it would behave quite well at 450 kt. at 200 ft. A digital terrain following feature, such as flown in the Rafale earlier this year, is under discussion for the Gripen, especially if required by an export customer.

Any multirole fighter/attack aircraft is a compromise these days, and the Gripen is no exception. When developing the Gripen, the Swedish air force, FMV and Saab opted for a small aircraft, with good performance and with emphasis on excellent warfare information capabilities. After flying the Gripen aircraft and simulator, and observing the Swedish air force operational philosophy and capabilities, I believe the Swedes hit the mark.

The Gripen is about half the weight of the Boeing Super Hornet I flew last year and the Dassault Rafale flown earlier this year (AW&ST Aug. 31, 1998, p. 50; July 5, p. 48). It also is considerably lighter than the Eurofighter. With this lighter weight comes a less expensive airframe, with the Gripen coming in at close to half the flyaway price of the Super Hornet, Rafale and Eurofighter. The lighter weight also means less payload capability. But, with the Gripen's current payload, the reliance on smart weapons and the quick-turnaround capability from dispersed bases, a high payload requirement is not as important.

While high performance was not the Swedes' highest priority in its compromise package, the balance between the aircraft's speed, acceleration, turning rate and overall maneuvering capability makes the Gripen an excellent multirole combat aircraft. While not a stealthy aircraft, or in the same league as the Lockheed Martin-Boeing F-22 Raptor, its small size and design does give it advantages against larger foes.

Where the Gripen has the current advantage over many of its competitors is its information warfare capability and pilot's situational awareness. The aircraft's secure tactical data link system is the key to the pilot's ability to understand and exploit the tactical combat situation. This system also allows one aircraft to be the radar emitter, while transmitting all of the necessary target data to four passive aircraft spread out for tactical advantage. That same tactical information can come from ground control or from the Swedish air force Erieye early-warning aircraft. The low workload coefficient built into the Gripen also allows the pilot improved situational awareness when it is most needed.

The downsizing of the Swedish air force has been one of the driving forces to not only develop an efficient multirole aircraft, but also one that is reliable and maintainable. The Gripen will eventually replace the Viggen flown in the separate fighter, attack and reconnaissance roles. In the late 1980s, the Swedish air force had 425 combat aircraft in some 26 squadrons. By 2007, the 204 Gripens on order will have been delivered, and there are plans to have them operational with eight squadrons, although the basing and potential further base closures is still under discussion in the Swedish Parliament.

FROM MY TIME WITH the Swedish air force, both this recent visit and flying the Viggen with the F13 Wing some time ago from the closed Norkkping base, it would appear that the service is successfully trading in quantity of aircraft for the quality of tactical air operations offered by the Gripen, Erieye and the Swedish military command and control system.

During dinner following the flight, Maj. Gen. Jan Jonsson, inspector general of the Swedish air force, said that he was hoping the service would expand its international scope and participate in NATO-type peace-keeping operations. I have to believe that any tactical operational theatre commander would welcome a squadron of Gripens on the ramp[/quote]


http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=11...47P100&set_id=1

Inside SA's hi-tech warbird

By Helmoed R๖mer Heitman

Air warfare is a complex thing. Its effectiveness is determined by a host
of factors, among them fighting strategy, aircraft numbers,
manoeuvrability, weaponry, defensive capability, communications,
maintenance, ground support and intelligence.

Oh, and something the experts refer to as "an edge".

The South African Air Force will soon become one of fewer than a dozen air
forces operating fighters of the "4th generation", ensuring that world's
second-oldest independent air force keeps its edge through the first
decades of the 21st century. Its new Saab Gripen fighters will replace the
present Cheetah C between 2007 and 2012, and are likely to remain in
service until 2030 or longer.

What makes these 4th generation fighters so special?
The Gripen was the first of the "4th generation" fighters to enter service,
and is so far the only light fighter of that generation in operation (the
American F-35 Joint Strike Fighter is still in development). The
American-built F-22 Raptor, the Eurofighter Typhoon and the French Rafale
are much larger and considerably more expensive.

So what makes these 4th generation fighters so special? Stealth technology,
for a start, together with fully integrated digital systems and inherently
unstable - and thus very manoeuvrable - airframes made flyable by
"fly-by-wire" computer-controlled systems.

Development of the Gripen began back in 1982. It first took to the air in
December 1989, becoming operational (in the Swedish Air Force) in 1996. The
first JAS-39C, on which the SAAF version is based, was delivered in
September 2002.

The Swedes chose a light fighter for several reasons, one of the most
important being its lower acquisition and operating costs. It also comes
with operational advantages: a small aircraft is also a smaller radar and
visual target; and is better suited to the dispersed operations of the
Swedish Air Force, which regards large bases as too vulnerable. In action,
its fighters would disperse to small tactical bases and hardened and
prepared stretches of road 800m long and 17m (sometimes only nine metres) wide.

A key requirement was the ability to conduct operations with minimal ground
support equipment and technical personnel at these dispersed bases - and
here the Gripen excels. It can be turned around between missions by just
one technician and five conscripts - within 10 minutes for air defence
missions and 20 minutes for strike missions, depending on the weapons load.

A further critical requirement was for a true multi-role fighter that would
be equally effective in air combat and ground attack. In fact, the Swedes
go further and use the term "swing role", referring to the Gripen's ability
to swing from air-to-air to air-to-ground during a mission. In reality,
this flexibility would be limited by the weapons already loaded for the
mission, but the concept does underline the flexibility of modern digital
avionics and mission systems.

The final critical requirement was that the new fighter would fit into the
concept of "net-centric" operations, with full data exchange between
aircraft and other systems by datalink to gain maximum force flexibility
and effectiveness. The aircraft was also required to operate independently
of the full command and control system.

All of these factors are important to a small air force that can afford
only a few fighters, and one that is not exactly over-endowed with
technicians. They will be particularly valuable to the SAAF, which operates
a very small fighter force in a very large theatre, and needs all the
flexibility that it can squeeze out of its aircraft.

The design that meets this stringent requirement is a single-engine,
close-coupled canard delta-wing aircraft that's both small and agile, and
makes optimal use of modern technologies. The 45ฐ delta wing is mid-mounted
to provide clearance for under-wing weapons. The all-moving 45ฐ delta
fore-planes are higher, to optimise the airflow over the wing. They also
improve short-field performance by generating lift during the critical
nose-high take-off and landing phases, where conventional tail surfaces
have to generate a downforce to raise the nose.

They tilt to almost 90ฐ during the landing run to act as enormous
airbrakes, allowing the Gripen to do without a thrust-reverser. The main
wing has leading-edge flaps and trailing edge "elevons" (combined ailerons
and elevators) to enhance short field performance.

This canard layout - coupled with the low wing loading of 341 kg/mฒ -
results in a very agile aircraft with a 30ฐ per second instantaneous turn
rate (the F-16 achieves 20ฐ per second), a 20ฐ per second sustained turn
rate, and a roll rate of 240ฐ per second.

Power is provided by a Volvo Aero RM-12 turbofan developed from the General
Electric F404, a variant of which powers the US Navy's F/A-18s. It has a
larger fan to increase the airflow and power, giving 5 400kg of dry thrust
and 8 359kg of thrust in afterburner, for a thrust-to-weight ratio of 0,94.
Although this is not in the league of some modern fighters, which boast
ratios in excess of 1, the Gripen is anything but a wimp, and has plenty of
power for good overall agility. As a turbofan it is relatively thrifty,
burning 50 litres a minute in dry thrust and 150 litres a minute in
afterburner.

A full-authority digital engine control (FADEC) system optimises engine
operation and automatically switches to back-up systems when necessary. It
also monitors the engine's performance and ongoing condition. The engine is
modular is design, which greatly simplifies maintenance and repair in the
field. When an entire engine has to be removed, it can be done by a team of
four using mini-hoists and normal hand tools.

The Gripen C, developed with BAE Systems, has a retractable in-flight
refuelling probe and an on-board oxygen generating system to allow longer
missions.

A Lockheed-Martin/BAE Systems full-authority triplex digital "fly-by-wire"
flight control system allows full use of the agility inherent in the
Gripen's "relaxed" static stability by giving "carefree" handling
characteristics: the pilot can throw the aircraft around with abandon,
secure in the knowledge that the flight control system will not allow it to
depart from controlled flight.

To that end it limits the load factor (the amount of "G"), the angle of
attack (the difference between the attitude of the aircraft and its
direction of flight), the angle of sideslip and the roll rate. It also
prevents the aircraft from entering a spin, and has an auto-recovery
function. It harmonises the control surfaces to give good damping and gust
alleviation - particularly important during low-level tactical flight.

Given its absolute dependence on the electronic flight control system, the
Gripen needs a backup - and it comes in the form of a "get you home"
analogue flight control system that disconnects the canard fore-planes to
stabilise the aircraft in pitch, enabling the pilot to fly without computer
assistance. There is also a multiple power supply backup that includes
batteries and an emergency thermal battery pack providing nine minutes of
power.

The Gripen has an "all-glass" cockpit with no analogue instruments - not
even as backup. Everything is shown on colour flat-panel multifunction
displays. The flight controls are more conventional, with a central
"mini-stick" and normal throttle and rudder pedals. The seat is raked at
27ฐ for high-G manoeuvring.

All time-critical functions are controlled by buttons and switches on the
throttle and the stick, allowing the pilot to keep his hands where they're
needed in combat, with no need to reach for switches. That simplifies his
task and reduces the risk of a fumble, particularly during high-G
manoeuvring. The throttle (also termed "system hand controller") has no
fewer than 14 functions.

The core philosophy underlying the avionics and navigation/attack systems
is "don't need, don't show", with the pilot selecting what he needs and the
system injecting critical or emergency information when necessary.

The cockpit has five displays: wide-angle (297ฐ x 22ฐ) head-up display,
three 152mm x 203mm interchangeable colour multifunction displays MFDs),
and an integrated helmet-mounted sight and display system. The MFDs are
fully compatible with night-vision
goggles.

HUD (Head-Up Display) shows weapon aiming data (cannon lead angle and
missile firing cues in the air-to-air role; continuously-predicted impact
point, continuously-predicted release point and so on in the air-to-ground
role).

FDD (Flight Data Display) is usually the left-hand MFD. Shows flight data
(speed/ Mach number, rate of climb, angle of bank and so on), fuel status
and system status information for the aircraft, the engine and the stores
carried (weapons, reconnaissance pod, etc).

HSD (Horizontal Situation Display) is usually the centre MFD. Shows
navigation and tactical data on a selectable-scale moving map display.

MSD (Multi-Sensor Display) is usually the right-hand MFD. Shows the radar
picture, imagery from the forward-looking infrared or infrared search and
track sensors, data from the electronic warfare system, and information
from a real-time reconnaissance pod if one is being carried. Flight and
fire-control data are superimposed.

IHMD (Integrated Helmet-Mounted Display) shows key flight and weapons data
by projecting them into the pilot's field of view, allowing him to monitor
critical information while keeping his opponent or a ground target in
sight. It can be used to cue sensors and weapons, and can be used with
night-vision goggles.

The IHMD is the Cobra system developed by BAE Systems, Saab and the Kentron
division of South Africa's Denel. Kentron's element is the unique optical
head position sensor sub-system that keeps track of where the pilot is
looking, which is essential if accurate data is to be presented regardless
of the pilot's head position.

It uses an array of LEDs on the helmet, monitored by receivers in the
cockpit, and has proven more accurate than electromagnetic systems. It is
also immune to electromagnetic changes in the cockpit when new equipment is
installed. The Striker helmet of the Eurofighter Typhoon of the Royal Air
Force, German Air Force and Spanish Air Force will also use the Kentron system.

The Gripen's datalink allows it to exchange tactical picture and target
data with other fighters, command aircraft and ground radars. Quite apart
from enhancing the pilot's situation awareness, it enables an aircraft to
"illuminate" targets for others, allowing them to approach radar-silent
(pilots call this "nose cold"), with no emissions to give them away. One
aircraft can also pass updated target data to a ground attack strike
package, enabling the mission leader to update the attack plan on the basis
of the current situation before his aircraft enter the immediate target area.

The core philosophy underlying the sensor system is data fusion, presenting
the pilot with a tactical picture that's compiled by fusing the information
gathered using all of the aircraft's own sensors and the information passed
to it by other aircraft or the ground command post by means of the
datalink. The idea is to give the pilot the best possible situational
awareness at all times.

The Gripen's primary sensor is its multi-mode Ericsson radar (it's also
equipped with an integral electronic warfare system). It can carry an
optronic night navigation and targeting pod, and will in the future have an
infrared search and track system. For reconnaissance missions it can carry
pods with "wet film" or optronic/digital sensors. In the latter case the
imagery can be displayed in the cockpit.

Then there's the radar system. The Gripen's Ericsson PS-05A long-range
multi-mode pulse Doppler radar uses the I/J-Band (8 to 20 GHZ) and employs
low-, medium- and high-pulse repetition frequency modes for different
applications.

The radar is claimed to have excellent "look down" performance, able to
distinguish targets in the clutter of ground radar reflections, and has a
full suite of electronic counter-counter measures, optimised by using fully
programmable signal and data processors.

The Zeiss Optronik Litening pod has been integrated with the Gripen, and
can be used for low-level night/poor weather navigation, and for target
acquisition and precision engagement. It mounts a high-resolution
forward-looking infrared sensor with wide (search) and narrow (acquisition/
targeting) fields of view, a charge-coupled device TV camera for daylight
operations, a laser range-finder, and a laser designator for
laser-marked-target seeking bombs and missiles. There is also a video
downlink that can be used for reconnaissance or surveillance situations.

An on-gimbal inertial navigation sensor establishes line of sight and
bore-sighting with the aircraft systems, and an automatic target-tracker
provides fully stabilised tracking throughout normal ground target
engagement manoeuvres. The pod's sensors can be cued using the helmet
display to designate a target.

The Gripen has also been designed to mount an infrared search and track
(IRST) system for passive acquisition and tracking of aerial targets,
giving the obvious and very real advantage of not announcing to the target
aircraft that it has been acquired and is being tracked.

The IRST system will be integrated with the helmet sight to alert and cue
the pilot, and can be used to cue the radar and the aircraft's missiles.
The system being developed for the Gripen is the Saab IR-OTIS, an imaging
IR system that can be used to identify a target. It will be mounted in a
dome on the nose ahead of the cockpit.

The Gripen's integrated electronic warfare system warns the pilot of
threats, alerts him when his aircraft has been acquired, is being tracked
or is being engaged, protects the aircraft against radar acquisition and
tracking, and records electronic threats for later downloading and
analysis. The SAAF aircraft may receive the standard system, but may
alternatively use the South African multi-sensor warning system developed
by Avitronics, which offers the same functions and is highly regarded.

The warning portion of the system comprises radar warning receiver, laser
warning and missile approach warning sub-systems. The self-protection
portion comprises an internal jammer and chaff/ flare dispensers in two
weapons pylons.

The Gripen can also carry an external jammer pod, and a BO2D towed radar
decoy in place of one of the chaff/flare dispensers. The BO2D is a two
kilogram unit towed 100m behind the aircraft. The final element of the
electronic warfare suite is an IFF (identification, friend or foe) system,
which interrogates other aircraft prior to engagement to prevent "blue on
blue" incidents, and identifies the Gripen to other friendly systems. In
SAAF service this system will use a transponder developed locally by Tellumat.

The Gripen is intended primarily to use air-to-air missiles and "smart"
air-to-surface weapons, but can also deliver "dumb" bombs when these are
better suited to a target, and the single-seat variant also has a 27mm
Mauser BK27 cannon armed with 120 rounds.

Short-range air-to-air missiles will generally be carried on the wing-tip
rails, leaving the centreline station and four under-wing stations free for
heavier weapons and fuel tanks. Those stations can be fitted with
Nato-standard weapons pylons developed and manufactured in South Africa by
Denel Aviation, allowing the Gripen to carry a wide range of weapons.

Among the air-to-air weapons being qualified on the Gripen are the latest
generation of the American Sidewinder IR-homing "dogfight" missile, the
American AIM-120 AMRAAM beyond-visual-range missile, and the European BVR
Meteor and ASRAAM and IRIS-T short-range IR-homing "dogfight" missiles. The
SAAF will employ Kentron's V4 BVR missile and may use the V3C U-Darter
short-range missile until a new generation weapon is acquired. It is
considering the IRIS-T, but might support Kentron's advanced A-Darter project.

Air-to-surface weapons to be qualified on the Gripen include the Saab
RBS-15 missile, an anti-ship and anti-land target weapon; the
German-developed Taurus KEPD-150 and 350 weapons (with 150km and 350km
range respectively); and a full range of laser-marked target and other
precision-guided and unguided bombs.

Pilots for the Gripen will first learn to fly on the turboprop Pilatus
Astra at the Central Flying School, and then go on to the BAE Systems Hawk
lead-in fighter trainer at 85 Combat Flying School to learn the ins and
outs of fast jets and air combat, and to gain experience. Once they join 2
Squadron ("Flying Cheetahs"), they will spend time in a full mission Gripen
simulator to become acquainted with the aircraft and then fly the dual seat
version before transition to the single-seater.

A small group of pilots on the project team has already begun flying the
Gripen, but the first formal course will comprise combat instructors with
Cheetah C experience, who will be trained in Sweden and who may join a
Swedish Air Force Gripen squadron as part of a pilot exchange programme.
They will then present the first SAAF Gripen course at AFB Makhado in 2009,
training a mixed group of experienced Cheetah C pilots and new fighter
pilots fresh from the Hawk.

Technical personnel will initially be trained by Saab, with support from
the Swedish Air Force.



----------

Fighter generations

The fighter aircraft since WW II are often divided into "generations"
grouped by basic characteristics:

1st Generation: The subsonic/transonic day fighters of the 1950s, which
differed from the WW II fighters mainly in being jet powered and much
faster - F-86 Sabre, MiG-15, Hunter, Mystere and Saab's J-29 Tunnan.
Generation 1.5: the first supersonic fighters, but still relatively simple
day fighters - F-100 Super Sabre, MiG-19, Lightning, Super Mystere.

2nd Generation: The supersonic single-role fighters of the 1960s, which had
a limited night and poor weather capability, and which had integrated
analogue avionics and weapon systems - F-104 Starfighter, MiG-21, Mirage
III and Saab's J-35 Draken.

Generation 2.5: the fighters of the 1970s, which had better secondary role
capability but did not mark a real generation change - F-4 Phantom, MiG-23,
Mirage F1 and SAAB's J-39 Viggen.

3rd Generation: The multi-role fighters of the 1980s, which had
"fly-by-wire" control systems, digital but separate avionics and weapons
systems, and which were largely optimised for one role but had capability
in the other - F-16 Falcon, MiG-29, Tornado, Mirage 2000.

Generation 3.5: Upgraded 3rd Generation aircraft, much more capable but
still with 1970s aerodynamics and separate systems - F-16C, Mirage 2000-5.

4th Generation: The fully-multi-role fighters of the 1990s, developed from
the outset as fully integrated digital systems with a databus and
standardised interfaces, and also incorporating stealth features - F-22,
Rafale, Eurofighter, Gripen.


----------

Maximum Speed
1 400 km/h at sea level (just over Mach 1)
2 120 km/h at high altitude (Mach 2)
Note: The Gripen is supersonic at all altitudes. It can sustain supersonic
speed without afterburner at high altitude.

Thrust to weight ratio
0,94

Acceleration
Mach 0,5 to Mach 1,1 in 30 seconds at sea level

Take-off
400 m

Landing
500 m

Climb
100 seconds from brakes-off to 10 000 m
180 seconds from brakes-off to 14 000 m

Roll rate
240 degrees per second at Mach 0,79

Turn rate
30 degrees per second instantaneous
20 degrees per second sustained

360-degree turn
12 to 18 seconds

Load factor
+9G to -3G

Length
14,1 m

Wingspan
8,4 m

Wing area
30 mฒ

Maximum take-off
14 000 kg

External load
5 000 kg

Air-to-air range
800 km with two medium- and two short-range missiles


This article originally appeared in the June issue of the South African
edition of Popular Mechanics magazine [/quote]

[Yahoo25]

It would seem that it has a better thrust to weight ratio than the Gripen, it's climb rate is certainly better

TWR is not every thing.
how its climb rate is better than Gripen? Gripen flight performance is more in class of EF,Rafale and Su-35.
Swedes have also improved the engine with 40% components made in Sweden. weopon load is greater at 5300KG and is continous 9G machine.





GRIPEN PILOT REPORT

Gripen Key to Sweden's Air Defense Force Quick turnaround time, improved information warfare capability give Saab fighter an edge against larger foes

DAVID M. NORTH

6 December 1999
Aviation Week & Space Technology

Vol. 151, No. 23
English
Sweden is constructing one of the most effective air defense structures in the world using its air force's Saab Gripen multirole fighter, Saab/Ericsson Erieye airborne early warning platform, tactical information data link, and a modern command and control system.

While the Swedish air force has had its tactical information data link system in operation since the mid-1980s, it is the replacement of the Saab Viggen with the Gripen and the addition of the Ericsson-developed early-warning system on a Saab 340B that has addressed modern information warfare and made the service a fourth-generation operational force. While the cost of the air national defense system is a large part of Sweden's military budget, it does not bear the high total cost of similar systems either being evaluated or installed by other countries.

I was fortunate to be invited to visit the F7 Wing at Satenas in late October to fly the Gripen. The air base had been chosen to be the primary training base for Draken and Viggen pilots transitioning to the Gripen. There are two JAS 39 training squadrons here, and the first 16 Draken pilots from the F10 Wing are undergoing training to be the nucleus of the first operational Gripen squadron at Angelholm. However, both JAS 39 training squadrons are considered to be combat operational by the air force.

The training facility here is housed in a ``Y''-shaped building adjacent to the Gripen ramp and hangars. It is specifically designed for training operations, with two full-mission simulators, four multimission simulators and numerous study rooms in one wing. The squadron offices and flight operations are contained in another wing, while associated units and the ground mobile command and control units are in the remaining wing. The facility is one of the best of its kind I have seen in military operations.

Transitioning pilots will receive 5-6 months of training in the Gripen here and then return to their respective squadrons for a year of advanced tactical training. New pilots joining the F7 Wing after a year of primary flight training and some 240 flight hours will train for one year in F7, receiving 40 hr. in the simulator and 62 hr. in the Gripen prior to going to a squadron for more advanced tactical training. The first group of these new pilots is expected at Satenas late next year.

Prior to the flight, I had to be fitted for an exposure or ``poopy suit'' as well as lower and jacket g-suits, all designed by the Swedish air force for its own operations. Because of the cold water temperatures in and around Sweden, an exposure suit is worn most months. The suit, once donned, is quite comfortable.

I was also able to sit in one of the four multimission trainers (MMT) for 30 min. to get acquainted with the Gripen cockpit. The cockpit briefing was given by Lt. Col. Bjorn Johansson, an air force test pilot attached to the Swedish Defense Material Administration (FMV). I was to fly with him the following day in the Gripen.

The Loral MMT is equipped with a Evans & Sutherland three-screen vision display, a head-up display (HUD) and the Gripen cockpit. The MMT can be linked with the dome simulators and other MMTs to show scenarios involving four aircraft. The cockpit is designed with three multifunction displays in a ``Y''or left, right and lower display arrangement, much like the Boeing F/A-18 series of multirole aircraft. An upfront controller is below the HUD, but a good adaptation of the hands-on-throttle-and-stick (HOTAS) concept eliminates having to reach up and use the up-front controller.

The left multifunction display (MFD) is used for flight data, including the HUD and defensive aids and sensor images that might be shown on the HUD. The right MFD is used to show the image from the Ericsson PS-05/A radar, as well as other images from a Flir or reconnaissance pod. Neither of these two capabilities are under contract for the Gripen at this time. The lower MFD contains the tactical picture shown on the horizontal situation display format.

MMT time was very valuable, and I had difficulty differentiating all of the functions of the radar, target acquisition, speed control and different map scales controlled from the throttle and throttle guard as my time ran out. While Saab has investigated voice activation of many of these functions, it is not a high priority program for the Swedish air force. The use of a trigger guard and a single trigger on the control stick to launch air-to-air and air-to-ground weapons was much easier to absorb in my training.

I also had a problem distinguishing the symbols shown on the radar and tactical displays for targets, threats and wingmen. This was related to my recent lack of practice in evaluating tactical air-to-air situations as well as the monochromatic display.

Symbols for wingmen are shown with ``tails,'' the number of tails representing the wingman's number. Their altitude is shown behind the symbol, and threats are shown as designated by the pilot, the wingman or ground control. I also found it hard to get accustomed to the symbology that designates target priorities. My slowness in comprehending all that was happening in the tactical area could be overcome, I learned, with more simulator time.

To further help the pilot's situational awareness, Ericsson has developed larger, color 6.2 X 8.2-in. displays to replace the smaller monochromatic ones in the existing Gripens. The newer displays should be available in the third batch of Gripens to be delivered beginning in the 2001-02 time frame. The day after my Gripen flight, I flew in a dome simulator at Saab's Linkoping facility. The simulator had the new displays, and I found that my ability to comprehend what was occurring in the tactical displays was greatly increased.

Doing the walkaround while the fighter was in the hanger gave me the opportunity to observe just how small the single-seat Gripen really is. If you take a Lockheed F-16C and reduce its wingspan by some 3.5 ft., length by 3 ft. and height by almost 2 ft., you have the JAS 39A. The Gripen's empty gross weight of 14,600 lb. is some 4,000 lb. lighter than the F-16C.

Seeing the Gripen with its access panels open also underlined the compact design of its interior. Because of the dense interior, I was surprised when Saab test pilot Magnus Ljungberg explained that the inflight refueling probe for the export version of the aircraft fits over the right engine intake without changing the aircraft's fuselage. This is one of the modifications being developed with BAe Systems for the export version of the Gripen. The extended probe is located approximately 90 deg. to the pilot, and Ljungberg said that refueling was quite easy.

There was clear access to maintenance panels from the hangar floor. The Gripen was designed by Saab to be repaired easily and quickly, with a low life cycle cost.

The Swedish concept of using dispersed bases for flying operations puts a unique demand on maintenance and reliability. The Gripen is equipped with a maintenance fault localization and diagnostic system that helps speed repair work. The bases often consist of a road with a turnaround area and some shelter under trees. The crew required to handle a Gripen at one of these dispersed bases is one officer and seven conscripts. F7 pilots claim that the ground crew is able to refuel and rearm the Gripen in less than 10 min. for an air-to-air mission and less than 20 min. for an air-to-ground mission.

With more than 14,000 missions flown in the Gripen, the air force is finding that the new aircraft is requiring at least 40% less maintenance man-hours and 50% of the fuel usage of the Viggen.

The following morning, the day of the scheduled flight, there was a low overcast, fog and rain and the only suitable alternate was to the far north. So we we did as many pilots had done before us--sat and drank coffee, discussed previous flying operations and waited for the weather to get better. By noon, the conditions had improved--the visibility had increased, and there were suitable alternates, although the overcast was still well below 500 ft.

Johansson and I walked to JAS 39B No. 802 in front of the training facility, while a second flight crew manned another JAS 39B. The two-seat aircraft are owned by FMV (F7 is not scheduled to receive a two-seater until late next year).

The first impression on reaching the two aircraft being prepared to fly was the noise level of the auxiliary power units. Saab is replacing the Gripen's Microturbo units with quieter Sundstrand APUs during the next year.

I took the rear seat while Johansson occupied the front seat. The two-seat Gripen is 2.2 ft. longer than the single-seat version, and the internal gun has been removed. Fuel capacity is the same for both aircraft. Unlike the Dassault Rafale, there is no HUD in the back seat, although HUD and video information can be depicted on the flight data display. I found that once strapped into the Martin-Baker ejection seat, with leg and arm restraints attached, the cockpit was very comfortable. The functions I needed to operate on either side panel were easily accessible. The recline angle of the seat is less than that of a F-16, but more than that of the Viggen and the Boeing Hornet.

THE SWEDISH APPROACH to fuel capacity and fuel usage is quite simple--when the internal fuel capacity is full, the gauge registers as 100% in the cockpit. There is no fuel quantity in kilograms or pounds, nor is there a fuel flow meter. Internal fuel is approximately 5,000 lb., and when a full center drop tank is flown, it shows 140%. Fuel bingo also is shown in percentage remaining. While we were carrying a center drop tank, there was no fuel in the tank. Ramp weight of the JAS 39B was close to 24,000 lb.

JOHANSSON STARTED the single Volvo Aero RM12 turbofan engine, and following a short after start and system check, we taxied to the active runway. He deactivated some of the radar modes and the defensive electronic countermeasure systems which were deemed to be sensitive. He also demonstrated the agility of the aircraft on the ground by using the nosewheel steering to make several 360-deg. turns. This capability is especially necessary when operating from dispersed bases.

Johansson advanced power and acceleration was especially brisk in afterburner, with a takeoff roll of close to 1,700 ft. (518 meters) Once the landing gear was raised, the close-coupled canard-delta configured aircraft was clean with no other inputs needed. We entered the overcast at about 400 ft. and came out in the clear about 8,000 ft. The single-seat Gripen has the ability to climb to 33,000 ft. in less than 2 min.

Once leveled near 20,000 ft., Johansson gave me control of the aircraft. He then proceeded to demonstrate many of the features of the Gripen in the air-to-air role and the air-to-ground roles. One of the most impressive features of the aircraft is the ability to remain in a passive radar mode while targets are fed to the aircraft by data link from either a wingman or a ground controller. A ground controller in our area designated our wingman some 30 naut. mi. away as a target, and his altitude appeared behind the target symbol. While still passive, we choose the Raytheon Amraam for launch and fired the simulated missile for a hit.

The Gripen is currently capable of carrying four Amraams on the underwing stations, and a center fuselage station launcher is under study that would be capable of carrying two more Amraams. Full integration of the radar missile into air force operations was accomplished in April.

Early warning and battle management for the Swedish military has been further enhanced by the introduction of the Ericsson Erieye early-warning system mounted in a Saab 340B turboprop. The active phased array pulse Doppler radar offers an increased range of land-based radar out to 450 km. (243 naut. mi.), and a detection range for small fighter type aircraft of close to 350 km. (189 naut. mi). The Erieye uses S-band radar for a sharp and narrow main beam with low sidelobes. This configuration also is more resistant to jamming. The Swedish air force has four Erieye in operation, while two will be loaned to the Greek air force for several years prior to their receiving similar Ericsson Erieye systems mounted on Embraer 145s. The Swedish air force will eventually operate a total of six Erieye aircraft in two operational squadrons.

Johansson then identified a ground target that showed up on our multisensor display, that had been designated by our wingman and data-linked to us. Additional information from our wingman, included his fuel state, weapons available, targets selected and the view through his HUD, all appeared on the multisensor display. We selected a simulated RBS-15 antiship missile and launched it some 30 naut. mi. away from the ship in a harbor on Lake Vanern near Satenas.

THE PS-05/A RADAR was turned on and the antenna removed from its near horizontal park position. In the air-to-ground mode, the resolution mapping of the lake was quite good, but it had the capability to be better. The radar has ground/sea moving target indication and tracking, as well as air-to-ground ranging. In the air-to-air mode, the Gripen's radar has an all-altitude look-down capability and can track up to 10 targets. Its track-while-search feature in the automatic mode assures good situational awareness, and the mission computer predicts the greatest threat to the aircraft.

Ericsson is looking to the U.S. and France to help in the development of an active electronically scanning antenna for the Gripen. A contract for joint development is planned for next June with the intent of having a demonstration of the new radar in 3-4 years.

With the radar still in the air-to-air mode, we picked out our wingman/target at near our 10 o'clock position and switched to the heat-seeking missile mode. While we did not receive a tone, the wingman was well within the range of the Sidewinder-type missile. The range circle around the pipper showed maximum, no escape and minimum range of the missile's envelope, although I still could not see our wingman. Johansson attempted to point out our wingman passing across our nose and moving to the one o'clock position. A helmet-mounted sighting system is in development for the Gripen, and a prototype is being flown at Saab in its dome simulator.

Another virtue of the Gripen is its small size, a not-to-be-underestimated positive factor when it comes to within visual range combat. I had difficulty picking the wingman out over the overcast until he reached our two o'clock position low. I rolled in on the wingman, and switching to guns, saw the symbol on the gunsight indicating hits on the other Gripen. While Johansson had to coach me through the switching of radar displays and weapon selection, I realized Saab and the Swedish air force have achieved a low pilot workload for the combat scenario. Compared with other multirole aircraft I have flown recently, the situational awareness and workload in the Gripen appeared to have the edge for intuitive movements and simplicity.

A session in the planning and analysis room after the flight showed all of the parameters of our flight from a digital recorder. The tape verified our missile and gun hits, as well as indicated generic maximum and no-escape ranges. The tape records all button or switch activations as well as flight parameters, weapon delivery envelope and results, and ongoing tactical situation. Four aircraft can be flown together in the evaluation scenario.

I DID NOT MAKE a very good rendezvous with the wingman, missing our closing rate by a large factor, even though his speed was shown on my airspeed indicator. The airspeed is shown in km./hr. and the altitude in meters. While the conversion was my problem, not the Swedes, I had some difficulty in adjusting to the layout of the altimeter, where an even 1,000-ft., (or even-meter) altitude is not shown by a needle arm at the 12 o'clock position, as it is on a regular altimeter.

Flying formation on the wingman was quite simple. This is when I realized that the triple digital flight control system in the Gripen made flying easy. The position of the throttle and the stick mounted on a pedestal below the instrument panel were very comfortable to operate, making another point for good machine-man interface. The Gripen's stick is designed for movement, some 9 deg. forward, 13 deg. aft and 7 deg. left and right.

Stick movement became more of a factor later when I did a full-throw aileron roll at Mach 0.79. Roll rate was on the order of 240-deg./sec, Johansson said. The altitude was near 15,000 ft. at the time. An initial 6g pullup to a loop was done at 450 kt., and I came out at 10 deg. off heading. A 6.5g turning pull in military power showed the excellent turning capability of the Gripen. Sustained turn performance of the 9g aircraft is given at 20-deg./sec. As Johansson said, the delta wing Viggen seemed to push the air around in a turn, while the Gripen cuts through the air almost effortlessly. The aircraft also provides a very steady gun platform, which I learned as I flew some steep gun attacks against the top of clouds.

The clean lines of the Gripen were apparent as Johansson and I had to keep track of my power setting and speed so as not to break Mach 1.0. The Gripen will do Mach 1.05 at low level in military power. Advertised maximum speeds for the Gripen are Mach 1.2 at low level and close to Mach 2 at high altitude. Maximum aerodynamic speed of the Gripen has been calculated to be 1,400 kph. or 755 kt.

Johansson said that there have been no problems with the Volvo RM12 engine in the Gripen development or during its some 14,000 missions. The RM12 is a cooperative engine program with General Electric based on the F404 engine in the Boeing F/A-18 Hornet.

The Gripen has been taken to a deep stall, where power was moved continuously between flight idle and military power without any stall stagnation problems. The engine also has operated well at 160-deg. angle of attack and 90 deg. of slideslip, Johansson said.

Volvo redesigned the fan in the F404 engine to give a 10% increase in airflow, with a 6% increase in thrust while increasing the turbine temperature slightly for the RM12 design. The front frame of the engine also was modified to better withstand bird strikes. Volvo also is working on a new full-authority digital engine control (FADEC) and a redesigned afterburner flame holder for the RM12 engine. The 18,400 lb. of thrust in afterburner gives the aircraft excellent acceleration characteristics, and Saab says the Gripen will go from Mach 0.5 to Mach 1.1 in approximately 30 sec. at low altitude.

Similar to other aircraft of like design, such as the French Rafale, test pilots have found that the Gripen is spin-resistant. The aircraft has been put in spins during testing, but some of the control laws and the spin recovery mode in the flight control system had to be modified. The spin recovery mode in the Gripen first stops roll oscillation, then yaw, before pitching the nose of the aircraft down.

By this time, the fuel remaining in the Gripen was reading 40%, and Johansson indicated the steering cue on my HUD display that would get me back to Satenas. A descent was made in the clouds to 800 meters (2,624 ft.) at 500 kph. (270 kt.). The Swedish air force uses a tactical landing system, similar to that of the U.S. Navy, with a slight offset from the runway, Johansson said. At 600 meters (1,970 ft.) and 450 kph. (243 kt.), the autothrottle was engaged by depressing a button on the throttle. The symbology for the approach was easy to follow, although I found myself looking for a rate of descent indication. There is not one installed in the Gripen, because the pilots believed it was not needed.

The aircraft was very steady on the approach and aircraft response matched control input at the lower speeds. Once we broke out below the overcast at some 100 meters (328 ft.), Johansson took the aircraft and landed at near 130 kt. with a angle of attack near 13 deg. for the final approach.

All three landing gear have carbon brakes installed and an antiskid system. On landing, the leading edge of the canard goes down and the elevons go up and the fuselage mounted speedbrakes extend. Stopping distance was about 600 meters (1,970 ft.), although Johansson did not apply maximum braking.

WHILE NOT ABLE TO MAKE the landing in the Gripen, I did land on a road in the high-fidelity Gripen dome simulator at Saab, and found the landing characteristics exactly as I had observed at Satenas. The aircraft was stable on approach, and landing without flare at 130 kt., the Gripen was easily stopped within 600 meters. All in all, I had flown approximately one hour in the Gripen from blocks to blocks. This is a fairly standard flight with internal fuel and more than ample reserves, Johansson said.

There are a number of upgrades and new equipment planned for the Gripen. After flying the aircraft with its smaller monochromatic displays, the larger color Ericsson displays, as flown in the dome simulator, will make a big difference to improve the pilot's situational awareness. An OBOGS on-board oxygen generating system will replace the traditional oxygen system in later aircraft. A new inertial navigation system with GPS also is under development. An integrated infrared search and track system is being developed for the Gripen by Saab Dynamics, and it appears that an advanced electronically scanned array (AESA) radar will eventually replace the Ericsson PS-05A radar.

While I was not able to fly the Gripen for a low level flight, my impression is that it would behave quite well at 450 kt. at 200 ft. A digital terrain following feature, such as flown in the Rafale earlier this year, is under discussion for the Gripen, especially if required by an export customer.

Any multirole fighter/attack aircraft is a compromise these days, and the Gripen is no exception. When developing the Gripen, the Swedish air force, FMV and Saab opted for a small aircraft, with good performance and with emphasis on excellent warfare information capabilities. After flying the Gripen aircraft and simulator, and observing the Swedish air force operational philosophy and capabilities, I believe the Swedes hit the mark.

The Gripen is about half the weight of the Boeing Super Hornet I flew last year and the Dassault Rafale flown earlier this year (AW&ST Aug. 31, 1998, p. 50; July 5, p. 48). It also is considerably lighter than the Eurofighter. With this lighter weight comes a less expensive airframe, with the Gripen coming in at close to half the flyaway price of the Super Hornet, Rafale and Eurofighter. The lighter weight also means less payload capability. But, with the Gripen's current payload, the reliance on smart weapons and the quick-turnaround capability from dispersed bases, a high payload requirement is not as important.

While high performance was not the Swedes' highest priority in its compromise package, the balance between the aircraft's speed, acceleration, turning rate and overall maneuvering capability makes the Gripen an excellent multirole combat aircraft. While not a stealthy aircraft, or in the same league as the Lockheed Martin-Boeing F-22 Raptor, its small size and design does give it advantages against larger foes.

Where the Gripen has the current advantage over many of its competitors is its information warfare capability and pilot's situational awareness. The aircraft's secure tactical data link system is the key to the pilot's ability to understand and exploit the tactical combat situation. This system also allows one aircraft to be the radar emitter, while transmitting all of the necessary target data to four passive aircraft spread out for tactical advantage. That same tactical information can come from ground control or from the Swedish air force Erieye early-warning aircraft. The low workload coefficient built into the Gripen also allows the pilot improved situational awareness when it is most needed.

The downsizing of the Swedish air force has been one of the driving forces to not only develop an efficient multirole aircraft, but also one that is reliable and maintainable. The Gripen will eventually replace the Viggen flown in the separate fighter, attack and reconnaissance roles. In the late 1980s, the Swedish air force had 425 combat aircraft in some 26 squadrons. By 2007, the 204 Gripens on order will have been delivered, and there are plans to have them operational with eight squadrons, although the basing and potential further base closures is still under discussion in the Swedish Parliament.

FROM MY TIME WITH the Swedish air force, both this recent visit and flying the Viggen with the F13 Wing some time ago from the closed Norkkping base, it would appear that the service is successfully trading in quantity of aircraft for the quality of tactical air operations offered by the Gripen, Erieye and the Swedish military command and control system.

During dinner following the flight, Maj. Gen. Jan Jonsson, inspector general of the Swedish air force, said that he was hoping the service would expand its international scope and participate in NATO-type peace-keeping operations. I have to believe that any tactical operational theatre commander would welcome a squadron of Gripens on the ramp[/quote]


http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=11...47P100&set_id=1

Inside SA's hi-tech warbird

By Helmoed R๖mer Heitman

Air warfare is a complex thing. Its effectiveness is determined by a host
of factors, among them fighting strategy, aircraft numbers,
manoeuvrability, weaponry, defensive capability, communications,
maintenance, ground support and intelligence.

Oh, and something the experts refer to as "an edge".

The South African Air Force will soon become one of fewer than a dozen air
forces operating fighters of the "4th generation", ensuring that world's
second-oldest independent air force keeps its edge through the first
decades of the 21st century. Its new Saab Gripen fighters will replace the
present Cheetah C between 2007 and 2012, and are likely to remain in
service until 2030 or longer.

What makes these 4th generation fighters so special?
The Gripen was the first of the "4th generation" fighters to enter service,
and is so far the only light fighter of that generation in operation (the
American F-35 Joint Strike Fighter is still in development). The
American-built F-22 Raptor, the Eurofighter Typhoon and the French Rafale
are much larger and considerably more expensive.

So what makes these 4th generation fighters so special? Stealth technology,
for a start, together with fully integrated digital systems and inherently
unstable - and thus very manoeuvrable - airframes made flyable by
"fly-by-wire" computer-controlled systems.

Development of the Gripen began back in 1982. It first took to the air in
December 1989, becoming operational (in the Swedish Air Force) in 1996. The
first JAS-39C, on which the SAAF version is based, was delivered in
September 2002.

The Swedes chose a light fighter for several reasons, one of the most
important being its lower acquisition and operating costs. It also comes
with operational advantages: a small aircraft is also a smaller radar and
visual target; and is better suited to the dispersed operations of the
Swedish Air Force, which regards large bases as too vulnerable. In action,
its fighters would disperse to small tactical bases and hardened and
prepared stretches of road 800m long and 17m (sometimes only nine metres) wide.

A key requirement was the ability to conduct operations with minimal ground
support equipment and technical personnel at these dispersed bases - and
here the Gripen excels. It can be turned around between missions by just
one technician and five conscripts - within 10 minutes for air defence
missions and 20 minutes for strike missions, depending on the weapons load.

A further critical requirement was for a true multi-role fighter that would
be equally effective in air combat and ground attack. In fact, the Swedes
go further and use the term "swing role", referring to the Gripen's ability
to swing from air-to-air to air-to-ground during a mission. In reality,
this flexibility would be limited by the weapons already loaded for the
mission, but the concept does underline the flexibility of modern digital
avionics and mission systems.

The final critical requirement was that the new fighter would fit into the
concept of "net-centric" operations, with full data exchange between
aircraft and other systems by datalink to gain maximum force flexibility
and effectiveness. The aircraft was also required to operate independently
of the full command and control system.

All of these factors are important to a small air force that can afford
only a few fighters, and one that is not exactly over-endowed with
technicians. They will be particularly valuable to the SAAF, which operates
a very small fighter force in a very large theatre, and needs all the
flexibility that it can squeeze out of its aircraft.

The design that meets this stringent requirement is a single-engine,
close-coupled canard delta-wing aircraft that's both small and agile, and
makes optimal use of modern technologies. The 45ฐ delta wing is mid-mounted
to provide clearance for under-wing weapons. The all-moving 45ฐ delta
fore-planes are higher, to optimise the airflow over the wing. They also
improve short-field performance by generating lift during the critical
nose-high take-off and landing phases, where conventional tail surfaces
have to generate a downforce to raise the nose.

They tilt to almost 90ฐ during the landing run to act as enormous
airbrakes, allowing the Gripen to do without a thrust-reverser. The main
wing has leading-edge flaps and trailing edge "elevons" (combined ailerons
and elevators) to enhance short field performance.

This canard layout - coupled with the low wing loading of 341 kg/mฒ -
results in a very agile aircraft with a 30ฐ per second instantaneous turn
rate (the F-16 achieves 20ฐ per second), a 20ฐ per second sustained turn
rate, and a roll rate of 240ฐ per second.

Power is provided by a Volvo Aero RM-12 turbofan developed from the General
Electric F404, a variant of which powers the US Navy's F/A-18s. It has a
larger fan to increase the airflow and power, giving 5 400kg of dry thrust
and 8 359kg of thrust in afterburner, for a thrust-to-weight ratio of 0,94.
Although this is not in the league of some modern fighters, which boast
ratios in excess of 1, the Gripen is anything but a wimp, and has plenty of
power for good overall agility. As a turbofan it is relatively thrifty,
burning 50 litres a minute in dry thrust and 150 litres a minute in
afterburner.

A full-authority digital engine control (FADEC) system optimises engine
operation and automatically switches to back-up systems when necessary. It
also monitors the engine's performance and ongoing condition. The engine is
modular is design, which greatly simplifies maintenance and repair in the
field. When an entire engine has to be removed, it can be done by a team of
four using mini-hoists and normal hand tools.

The Gripen C, developed with BAE Systems, has a retractable in-flight
refuelling probe and an on-board oxygen generating system to allow longer
missions.

A Lockheed-Martin/BAE Systems full-authority triplex digital "fly-by-wire"
flight control system allows full use of the agility inherent in the
Gripen's "relaxed" static stability by giving "carefree" handling
characteristics: the pilot can throw the aircraft around with abandon,
secure in the knowledge that the flight control system will not allow it to
depart from controlled flight.

To that end it limits the load factor (the amount of "G"), the angle of
attack (the difference between the attitude of the aircraft and its
direction of flight), the angle of sideslip and the roll rate. It also
prevents the aircraft from entering a spin, and has an auto-recovery
function. It harmonises the control surfaces to give good damping and gust
alleviation - particularly important during low-level tactical flight.

Given its absolute dependence on the electronic flight control system, the
Gripen needs a backup - and it comes in the form of a "get you home"
analogue flight control system that disconnects the canard fore-planes to
stabilise the aircraft in pitch, enabling the pilot to fly without computer
assistance. There is also a multiple power supply backup that includes
batteries and an emergency thermal battery pack providing nine minutes of
power.

The Gripen has an "all-glass" cockpit with no analogue instruments - not
even as backup. Everything is shown on colour flat-panel multifunction
displays. The flight controls are more conventional, with a central
"mini-stick" and normal throttle and rudder pedals. The seat is raked at
27ฐ for high-G manoeuvring.

All time-critical functions are controlled by buttons and switches on the
throttle and the stick, allowing the pilot to keep his hands where they're
needed in combat, with no need to reach for switches. That simplifies his
task and reduces the risk of a fumble, particularly during high-G
manoeuvring. The throttle (also termed "system hand controller") has no
fewer than 14 functions.

The core philosophy underlying the avionics and navigation/attack systems
is "don't need, don't show", with the pilot selecting what he needs and the
system injecting critical or emergency information when necessary.

The cockpit has five displays: wide-angle (297ฐ x 22ฐ) head-up display,
three 152mm x 203mm interchangeable colour multifunction displays MFDs),
and an integrated helmet-mounted sight and display system. The MFDs are
fully compatible with night-vision
goggles.

HUD (Head-Up Display) shows weapon aiming data (cannon lead angle and
missile firing cues in the air-to-air role; continuously-predicted impact
point, continuously-predicted release point and so on in the air-to-ground
role).

FDD (Flight Data Display) is usually the left-hand MFD. Shows flight data
(speed/ Mach number, rate of climb, angle of bank and so on), fuel status
and system status information for the aircraft, the engine and the stores
carried (weapons, reconnaissance pod, etc).

HSD (Horizontal Situation Display) is usually the centre MFD. Shows
navigation and tactical data on a selectable-scale moving map display.

MSD (Multi-Sensor Display) is usually the right-hand MFD. Shows the radar
picture, imagery from the forward-looking infrared or infrared search and
track sensors, data from the electronic warfare system, and information
from a real-time reconnaissance pod if one is being carried. Flight and
fire-control data are superimposed.

IHMD (Integrated Helmet-Mounted Display) shows key flight and weapons data
by projecting them into the pilot's field of view, allowing him to monitor
critical information while keeping his opponent or a ground target in
sight. It can be used to cue sensors and weapons, and can be used with
night-vision goggles.

The IHMD is the Cobra system developed by BAE Systems, Saab and the Kentron
division of South Africa's Denel. Kentron's element is the unique optical
head position sensor sub-system that keeps track of where the pilot is
looking, which is essential if accurate data is to be presented regardless
of the pilot's head position.

It uses an array of LEDs on the helmet, monitored by receivers in the
cockpit, and has proven more accurate than electromagnetic systems. It is
also immune to electromagnetic changes in the cockpit when new equipment is
installed. The Striker helmet of the Eurofighter Typhoon of the Royal Air
Force, German Air Force and Spanish Air Force will also use the Kentron system.

The Gripen's datalink allows it to exchange tactical picture and target
data with other fighters, command aircraft and ground radars. Quite apart
from enhancing the pilot's situation awareness, it enables an aircraft to
"illuminate" targets for others, allowing them to approach radar-silent
(pilots call this "nose cold"), with no emissions to give them away. One
aircraft can also pass updated target data to a ground attack strike
package, enabling the mission leader to update the attack plan on the basis
of the current situation before his aircraft enter the immediate target area.

The core philosophy underlying the sensor system is data fusion, presenting
the pilot with a tactical picture that's compiled by fusing the information
gathered using all of the aircraft's own sensors and the information passed
to it by other aircraft or the ground command post by means of the
datalink. The idea is to give the pilot the best possible situational
awareness at all times.

The Gripen's primary sensor is its multi-mode Ericsson radar (it's also
equipped with an integral electronic warfare system). It can carry an
optronic night navigation and targeting pod, and will in the future have an
infrared search and track system. For reconnaissance missions it can carry
pods with "wet film" or optronic/digital sensors. In the latter case the
imagery can be displayed in the cockpit.

Then there's the radar system. The Gripen's Ericsson PS-05A long-range
multi-mode pulse Doppler radar uses the I/J-Band (8 to 20 GHZ) and employs
low-, medium- and high-pulse repetition frequency modes for different
applications.

The radar is claimed to have excellent "look down" performance, able to
distinguish targets in the clutter of ground radar reflections, and has a
full suite of electronic counter-counter measures, optimised by using fully
programmable signal and data processors.

The Zeiss Optronik Litening pod has been integrated with the Gripen, and
can be used for low-level night/poor weather navigation, and for target
acquisition and precision engagement. It mounts a high-resolution
forward-looking infrared sensor with wide (search) and narrow (acquisition/
targeting) fields of view, a charge-coupled device TV camera for daylight
operations, a laser range-finder, and a laser designator for
laser-marked-target seeking bombs and missiles. There is also a video
downlink that can be used for reconnaissance or surveillance situations.

An on-gimbal inertial navigation sensor establishes line of sight and
bore-sighting with the aircraft systems, and an automatic target-tracker
provides fully stabilised tracking throughout normal ground target
engagement manoeuvres. The pod's sensors can be cued using the helmet
display to designate a target.

The Gripen has also been designed to mount an infrared search and track
(IRST) system for passive acquisition and tracking of aerial targets,
giving the obvious and very real advantage of not announcing to the target
aircraft that it has been acquired and is being tracked.

The IRST system will be integrated with the helmet sight to alert and cue
the pilot, and can be used to cue the radar and the aircraft's missiles.
The system being developed for the Gripen is the Saab IR-OTIS, an imaging
IR system that can be used to identify a target. It will be mounted in a
dome on the nose ahead of the cockpit.

The Gripen's integrated electronic warfare system warns the pilot of
threats, alerts him when his aircraft has been acquired, is being tracked
or is being engaged, protects the aircraft against radar acquisition and
tracking, and records electronic threats for later downloading and
analysis. The SAAF aircraft may receive the standard system, but may
alternatively use the South African multi-sensor warning system developed
by Avitronics, which offers the same functions and is highly regarded.

The warning portion of the system comprises radar warning receiver, laser
warning and missile approach warning sub-systems. The self-protection
portion comprises an internal jammer and chaff/ flare dispensers in two
weapons pylons.

The Gripen can also carry an external jammer pod, and a BO2D towed radar
decoy in place of one of the chaff/flare dispensers. The BO2D is a two
kilogram unit towed 100m behind the aircraft. The final element of the
electronic warfare suite is an IFF (identification, friend or foe) system,
which interrogates other aircraft prior to engagement to prevent "blue on
blue" incidents, and identifies the Gripen to other friendly systems. In
SAAF service this system will use a transponder developed locally by Tellumat.

The Gripen is intended primarily to use air-to-air missiles and "smart"
air-to-surface weapons, but can also deliver "dumb" bombs when these are
better suited to a target, and the single-seat variant also has a 27mm
Mauser BK27 cannon armed with 120 rounds.

Short-range air-to-air missiles will generally be carried on the wing-tip
rails, leaving the centreline station and four under-wing stations free for
heavier weapons and fuel tanks. Those stations can be fitted with
Nato-standard weapons pylons developed and manufactured in South Africa by
Denel Aviation, allowing the Gripen to carry a wide range of weapons.

Among the air-to-air weapons being qualified on the Gripen are the latest
generation of the American Sidewinder IR-homing "dogfight" missile, the
American AIM-120 AMRAAM beyond-visual-range missile, and the European BVR
Meteor and ASRAAM and IRIS-T short-range IR-homing "dogfight" missiles. The
SAAF will employ Kentron's V4 BVR missile and may use the V3C U-Darter
short-range missile until a new generation weapon is acquired. It is
considering the IRIS-T, but might support Kentron's advanced A-Darter project.

Air-to-surface weapons to be qualified on the Gripen include the Saab
RBS-15 missile, an anti-ship and anti-land target weapon; the
German-developed Taurus KEPD-150 and 350 weapons (with 150km and 350km
range respectively); and a full range of laser-marked target and other
precision-guided and unguided bombs.

Pilots for the Gripen will first learn to fly on the turboprop Pilatus
Astra at the Central Flying School, and then go on to the BAE Systems Hawk
lead-in fighter trainer at 85 Combat Flying School to learn the ins and
outs of fast jets and air combat, and to gain experience. Once they join 2
Squadron ("Flying Cheetahs"), they will spend time in a full mission Gripen
simulator to become acquainted with the aircraft and then fly the dual seat
version before transition to the single-seater.

A small group of pilots on the project team has already begun flying the
Gripen, but the first formal course will comprise combat instructors with
Cheetah C experience, who will be trained in Sweden and who may join a
Swedish Air Force Gripen squadron as part of a pilot exchange programme.
They will then present the first SAAF Gripen course at AFB Makhado in 2009,
training a mixed group of experienced Cheetah C pilots and new fighter
pilots fresh from the Hawk.

Technical personnel will initially be trained by Saab, with support from
the Swedish Air Force.



----------

Fighter generations

The fighter aircraft since WW II are often divided into "generations"
grouped by basic characteristics:

1st Generation: The subsonic/transonic day fighters of the 1950s, which
differed from the WW II fighters mainly in being jet powered and much
faster - F-86 Sabre, MiG-15, Hunter, Mystere and Saab's J-29 Tunnan.
Generation 1.5: the first supersonic fighters, but still relatively simple
day fighters - F-100 Super Sabre, MiG-19, Lightning, Super Mystere.

2nd Generation: The supersonic single-role fighters of the 1960s, which had
a limited night and poor weather capability, and which had integrated
analogue avionics and weapon systems - F-104 Starfighter, MiG-21, Mirage
III and Saab's J-35 Draken.

Generation 2.5: the fighters of the 1970s, which had better secondary role
capability but did not mark a real generation change - F-4 Phantom, MiG-23,
Mirage F1 and SAAB's J-39 Viggen.

3rd Generation: The multi-role fighters of the 1980s, which had
"fly-by-wire" control systems, digital but separate avionics and weapons
systems, and which were largely optimised for one role but had capability
in the other - F-16 Falcon, MiG-29, Tornado, Mirage 2000.

Generation 3.5: Upgraded 3rd Generation aircraft, much more capable but
still with 1970s aerodynamics and separate systems - F-16C, Mirage 2000-5.

4th Generation: The fully-multi-role fighters of the 1990s, developed from
the outset as fully integrated digital systems with a databus and
standardised interfaces, and also incorporating stealth features - F-22,
Rafale, Eurofighter, Gripen.


----------

Maximum Speed
1 400 km/h at sea level (just over Mach 1)
2 120 km/h at high altitude (Mach 2)
Note: The Gripen is supersonic at all altitudes. It can sustain supersonic
speed without afterburner at high altitude.

Thrust to weight ratio
0,94

Acceleration
Mach 0,5 to Mach 1,1 in 30 seconds at sea level

Take-off
400 m

Landing
500 m

Climb
100 seconds from brakes-off to 10 000 m
180 seconds from brakes-off to 14 000 m

Roll rate
240 degrees per second at Mach 0,79

Turn rate
30 degrees per second instantaneous
20 degrees per second sustained

360-degree turn
12 to 18 seconds

Load factor
+9G to -3G

Length
14,1 m

Wingspan
8,4 m

Wing area
30 mฒ

Maximum take-off
14 000 kg

External load
5 000 kg

Air-to-air range
800 km with two medium- and two short-range missiles


This article originally appeared in the June issue of the South African
edition of Popular Mechanics magazine [/quote]

[crobato]

Right now the market for advanced trainers is more critical than for a light combat fighter. The reason for this is that there is a lot of aging airframes, which are increasingly limited in the number of flight hours you can put in a year, and increasing limitations on the strenousness of the maneuvers. An example is what is happening with the F-15s now. Overall, without a fix, you may be faced a situation of decreasing pilot quality in the incoming decade.

So while the primary steeds would have to be babied to stretch their limited pool of flight hours, you would need a secondary plane that you can use to seriously train, planes that are cheap, economical to operate, reliable and will provide a lot of flight hours. At the same time, the performance and sophistication of these planes and their avionics can very well approximate that of the primary mounts.

[WACHENR0DER]

TWR is not every thing.
how its climb rate is better than Gripen? Gripen flight performance is more in class of EF,Rafale and Su-35.
Swedes have also improved the engine with 40% components made in Sweden. weopon load is greater at 5300KG and is continous 9G machine.

[/QUOTE]

The Su-35, EF, and Rafale is a totally different class of performance in comparison to the Gripen, especially the Su-35. It simply can't match the longer range, as well as the twin engines providing more thrust and thus, the ability to carry more weapons. The Gripen is still within the same performance class as the Golden Eagle, Ching Kuo, F-20 and FC-1. And currently is probably the most expensive fighter for it's class.


As for Climb rate,
I found the stats of 3 min to reach 46,000 feet based on this dutch site
http://home.iae.nl/users/wbergmns/info/jas39.htm
which is also used by this Swedish site
http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/gripen/basic_data.html

[Yahoo25]

The Su-35, EF, and Rafale is a totally different class of performance in comparison to the Gripen, especially the Su-35. It simply can't match the longer range, as well as the twin engines providing more thrust and thus, the ability to carry more weapons. The Gripen is still within the same performance class as the Golden Eagle, Ching Kuo, F-20 and FC-1. And currently is probably the most expensive fighter for it's class.


As for Climb rate,
I found the stats of 3 min to reach 46,000 feet based on this dutch site
http://home.iae.nl/users/wbergmns/info/jas39.htm
which is also used by this Swedish site
http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/gripen/basic_data.html


I think you are making wrong comparisions. that 37000ft/minute is sea-level climb rate not from brake release like Gripen. Gripen S/L climbrate is over 50,000 ft/minute.
You can buy two Gripens for 1 EF or Rafale and will give the same Air to air and Air to Ground punch.
Sweden is selling EW stuff to F-14 and F-15 of US. Su-35 does not stand a chance against AIM-120C or R-darter equiped Gripen with sophisticated EW and TIDLS technology.
JAS-39C can carry Active BVRs the same as Su-35.

[Yahoo25]

http://www.global-defence.com/2003/sam_03.htm
Saab Avionics EW suites being fitted to Batch 3 JAS Gripens include an advanced RWR system that is in the final development phase for the German Tornado fleet. It is an ultra- violet (UV) based passive missile-approach warner operating in the solar-blind UV spectrum that ensures very low false alarm rates because it is immune to those coming from the sun. The company's range of innovative ECM dispensers are fitted to the F-14 Tomcat, F-15 Eagle, Tornado and Typhoon as well as Gripen. Conventional flares have been replaced by a technique that forms clouds of hot particles, creating a decoy that emits the correct heat signature and is also spatially convincing

[WACHENR0DER]

I think you are making wrong comparisions. that 37000ft/minute is sea-level climb rate not from brake release like Gripen. Gripen S/L climbrate is over 50,000 ft/minute.
You can buy two Gripens for 1 EF or Rafale and will give the same Air to air and Air to Ground punch.
Sweden is selling EW stuff to F-14 and F-15 of US. Su-35 does not stand a chance against AIM-120C or R-darter equiped Gripen with sophisticated EW and TIDLS technology.
JAS-39C can carry Active BVRs the same as Su-35.

Hello Yahoo, I'm glad you brought up the subject of cost versus capabilities offered, because this is the point where I want to focus on with the Golden Eagle.

For the most part, I'm going to focus on the potential because quite obviously, the Gripen is already out and at a more advance stage of development.

However similar to how you could probably afford 2 Gripens at the price of 1 Typhoon (i think it's more like 3 Gripens for 2 Typhoons), with the high price of the Gripen itself (about the same as the F-16I which offers more capabilities), you can probably get twice the number of Golden Eagles. This is where I think a light fighter should be.. good, but cheap enough to be bought in quantity. This is assuming that the A-50 variant of the Golden Eagle stays around the 20-22m mark.

As for weapons systems, the APG-67 radar that will be used (not sure if it's already installed in it) should be capable of launching the same AMRAAM that the Gripen uses, furthermore mock ups also include Mavericks as well. I'm not sure if larger guided A2G missiles or PGMS/JDAMs will be integrated with the Golden Eagle, but I would assume yes as the ROKAF intends to use the A-50 for ground attack roles. Also, should Israel choose this aircraft, it will probably be likely that the Israeli's will integrate their own weapons, which could include the Derby and Python series.

Unfortunately I cannot provide you with any more specs for the Golden Eagle as it's still under flight testing, and as stated, it's more of the potential of the aircraft than what actually exists at the moment. However given it's quick pace of development, flights and testing, I have high hopes for this aircraft.

I do like the Gripen, but for it's price, especially as Crobato once best stated "an F-20 with a delta wing and canards", I don't think it's worth it.

[Yahoo25]

Hello Yahoo, I'm glad you brought up the subject of cost versus capabilities offered, because this is the point where I want to focus on with the Golden Eagle.

For the most part, I'm going to focus on the potential because quite obviously, the Gripen is already out and at a more advance stage of development.

However similar to how you could probably afford 2 Gripens at the price of 1 Typhoon (i think it's more like 3 Gripens for 2 Typhoons), with the high price of the Gripen itself (about the same as the F-16I which offers more capabilities), you can probably get twice the number of Golden Eagles. This is where I think a light fighter should be.. good, but cheap enough to be bought in quantity. This is assuming that the A-50 variant of the Golden Eagle stays around the 20-22m mark.

As for weapons systems, the APG-67 radar that will be used (not sure if it's already installed in it) should be capable of launching the same AMRAAM that the Gripen uses, furthermore mock ups also include Mavericks as well. I'm not sure if larger guided A2G missiles or PGMS/JDAMs will be integrated with the Golden Eagle, but I would assume yes as the ROKAF intends to use the A-50 for ground attack roles. Also, should Israel choose this aircraft, it will probably be likely that the Israeli's will integrate their own weapons, which could include the Derby and Python series.

Unfortunately I cannot provide you with any more specs for the Golden Eagle as it's still under flight testing, and as stated, it's more of the potential of the aircraft than what actually exists at the moment. However given it's quick pace of development, flights and testing, I have high hopes for this aircraft.

I do like the Gripen, but for it's price, especially as Crobato once best stated "an F-20 with a delta wing and canards", I don't think it's worth it.
It is more like 3 Gripens for 1 EF or Two Gripens for One late model F-16.
Gripen fly away cost is $35M with $2000 cost per hr operations versus $3600 per hr for F-16 and around $8000 per hr for EF. EF fly away cost is closer to $90M.
JAS-39C can carry 5300KG with 8 hard points (just one less than F-16) with 6 BVR missiles.
I have yet to see any single engine aircraft matching the acceleration or agility of Gripen. Only F-22 seems better. EF and Rafale should provide similar
Flight performance.
for future there is NORA AESA is there with 200 degree scanning.
So considering Sophisticated Swedish technology and ERIEYE in one package it is the most cost effective solution for Airdefence and offence. The only problem is sweden export policy.
http://www.ericsson.com/microwave/products_sensors_nora.shtml
A complete radar system demonstrator will be installed in a Swedish fighter for flight tests in 2004.

The new radar will use an Active Electronically Scanned Array, AESA, built up with approximately 1 000 individual transmit/receive modules. The antenna, mounted on a single-axis platform, will give well over 200ฐ coverage in azimuth.

NORA offers superior performance by virtue of a number of core capabilities at Ericsson - beam agility, beam widening, multi-channel processing, target-specific waveforms and low radar cross-section.

The new radar system will make a vital contribution to information superiority for fighter pilots, to long-range fighter combat and the precision engagement of ground

[GoldenDragon]

The Golden Eagle by virtue of its western engine and components is forced sell to countries operating American products.

So by default you're competing with Western aircraft almost exclusively which makes it very hard. The FC-1, otoh, actually goes after markets that are embargoed by the US for various reasons.

There is one big attraction of the FC-1 which can cross lines of the US equipment users like Egypt and that's the SD-10 ARH BVRAAM.

Unless the US starts passing out the AMRAAM, the FC-1 would be highly attractive because of this. Alan Warnes in the latest AFM said in an opening editorial that the FC-1 could revolutionize not only the PAF but other small air forces around the world.

The FC-1, even with its open architecture, is not big deal. But the price coupled with the ARH BVR missile with little political strings is.

Unless the T/A-50 have access to the AMRAAM or another BVR weapon, it would be at another disadvantage.

But then again, the role envisioned is probably nearer to the Alphajet or AMX as a light strike craft than an air superiority machine (as the A-50 designation suggests) so the BVR AAM might not be that important to the country considering to buy it.

That said, the Vietnamese has expressed interest. If the US okays it, it would be a major development. But I would highly doubt the AMRAAM or American PGMs would go to Vietnam for the A-50 version.

Maybe the Koreans could develop their own set of ordnance or even couple the TC-II ARH AAM from Taiwan into the package. But this could cause political concerns in the US.

[WACHENR0DER]

Yahoo, the 90m figure is not the fly away cost of the Typhoon, it's the total costs that the RAF has paid. The Austrians are paying much more as well. But if we were to use those costs, then the Gripen certainly is NOT cheap.

figures..
Czech: about $56 per aircraft article below:

Czech government approves deal to lease 14 Gripens

Flight International
15-June-2004

The Czech government last week gave final approval to a proposed 10-year lease agreement for 14 Saab/BAE Systems JAS39C/D Gripen fighters that will replace its air force-operated Mikoyan MiG-21s in the interceptor role.

The deal had been expected to cost Ckr20.3 billion ($792 million), but negotiations between the Czech defence ministry and Sweden's defence materiel administration FMV saw this sum reduced to Ckr19.6 billion, enabling the Czech air force to spend around Ckr1 billion more to procure NATO-standard weapon systems for the aircraft; most likely from the USA.

Czech pilots will begin training courses in Sweden from mid-2004.

Contracts to be signed include a package of offset agreements worth Ckr25.5 billion - 130%of the lease deal's value - with Saab/BAE Systems joint venture Gripen International. This will include work worth hundreds of million of crowns for ailing Czech manufacturer Aero Vodochody.

LUBOMIR SEDLAK / PRAGUE

The Hungarian Deal
http://www.amcham.hu/BusinessHungary/17-06/articles/17-06_38.asp
14 Gripens for 141 billion HU = $47 million approximately

Austria was offered
24 Gripens for 1.856 billion Euros if payment was made on time (info via ACIG, via Die Press) which is incredibly expensive for a light fighter.


The South African deal isn't much cheaper either
from http://www.caat.org.uk/information/publications/countries/southafrica-0603.php
28 Gripen fighter aircraft from the Anglo-Swedish company SAAB for R10.875bn

----

You can google this and find clarifications from other source if you would like.
However one cannot deny that this aircraft is very expensive for a light fighter, especially when the F-16 could be offered for less to some countries.

Also, I find that the Golden Eagle is best compared to the Gripen as they are within the same weight class and size, not to mention at the same market, as Golden Dragon clearly mentioned (meaning countries already operating western aicraft, mainly American).

As for the operating costs, there are various figures.. the one you used is the most common one, most people find here..
http://www.mirage-jet.com/AIRFRAME/MAINTE_1/mainte_1.htm

however figures from this site display a different story
http://www.f-16.net/library/legacy.html

[Yahoo25]

That Hungarian, Czech and South African deals are not good examples. They invovled leasing, extensive offsets etc. So the price of aircraft is not accurately calculated.
the same way you can look at Polish F-16 deal. How expensive it is?. IDAF F-16I is not good example either because it cost is subsidized so that AID amount does not look big and IDAF has extensive infrastructure for F-16 so the price of $45M looks low but you have also look at the numbers. You are comparing 14 aircraft lease deal with 102 aircraft AID deal.

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=200401...28-014529-8921r

Gripen fighter jet on Asian radars

By Sonia Kolesnikov-Jessop
UPI Business Correspondent
Published 1/28/2004 11:34 AM

SINGAPORE, Jan. 28 (UPI) -- Between now and 2010, over 2,000 military
fighter jets are expected to be replaced across the world including several
hundreds in Asia, in countries like Thailand, Singapore, the Philippines,
Indonesia and New Zealand. Competition to get those upcoming contracts
promises to be intense, but one new generation multi-role fighter aircraft,
the Saab/BAE Systems JAS 39 Gripen, is quickly positioning itself to take
what it hopes will be at least a 10 percent share of that market.

"Over the next few years we see a potential market of over several 100
aircraft that we can compete for in Asia," says Stephen Reeves, Gripen
International's executive vice president for international marketing. "We
are confident there is a fair share for us to capture," he told UPI in an
interview.

Originally developed by Industry GroupJAS (SAAB, Ericsson, Volvo Aero and
FFV Aerotech), the aircraft is now marketed by Gripen International, which
is jointly owned by SAAB AB of Sweden and BAE SYSTEMS of the United Kingdom.

Reeves refused to give any details about potential clients, citing
confidentiality. "All I can say is that we have had interest from several
countries which are looking to replace their older F-5 and Mirage...We
believe there are very good opportunities out there."

The company will be competing against some of the newer, fourth generation
aircraft such as the American F-35/JSF, the Eurofighter Typhoon and Rafale.

But Reeves argues that Gripen has several advantages over its competitors,
one of which is its "substantial" lower unit cost, as well as its lower
cost per man hour of operation. "Our plane only cost an average of $2,000
per hour to fly. This compares with $25,000 for some of the Russian
aircrafts," he said.

Moreover, this fairly recent multi-role supersonic combat aircraft is the
only one so far to be able to change roles in the air at the press of a
button, resulting in a unique swing-role, multi-mission flexibility for
interception, ground attack and reconnaissance tasks, Reeves says.

Many military aircraft have multi-mission functions, but need to come back
to base to change from one to the other. With the Gripen jet, a pilot on a
reconnaissance mission can launch a ground attack if necessary and fight
another aircraft in the air thanks to a highly sophisticated computer
system on board, which even allowed a pilot to control other unmanned
planes in the air in combat situation.

At a time, when many military budgets are being closely watched and air
forces across the world have to reduce the number of jets they are flying
such type of aircraft has obvious advantages, Reeves said. "It's a
completely new concept. Other companies are working on similar aircraft,
but they are way behind," Reeves says.

Gripen has been in service with the Swedish Air Force since 1997 and to
date 130 of the 204 aircraft on order have been delivered.

In addition, Gripen has also been selected by the South African Air Force
(28 aircraft for an estimated value order of $1.5 billion) and the
Hungarian Air Force (14 aircraft for $505 million).

Last month, the Czech Air Force also announced 14 Gripen aircraft would
replace Russian MIG 21 currently being operated. The Czech rejected a rival
offer for U.S. Lockheed Martin's F-16 despite political pressures. Similar
political pressures from the U.S. government are believed to have pushed
the Polish government to choose the American F-16C/D over Gripen in a 48
aircraft deal estimated to be worth approximately $3.5 billion.

Meanwhile, Gripen is also high in the running for the current tender by the
Brazilian Air Force, Latin America's biggest arms contract in years to
replace its ageing Mirage III fleet. Although the bidding is for an initial
12 fighter jets worth up to $700 million, the overall requirement of the
Brazilians is for 100 jets.

Gripen is facing competition from Lockheed Martin's F-16, France's Dassault
Aviation's Mirage as well as the Russian Sukhoi 35 and MIG 29. "The
Brazilian decision is due next month and we understand that we're very well
placed," Reeves says.

In order to attract Asian clients, Gripen will present its plane for the
first time at Asian Aerospace (February 24-29).

"With the recent wins that we've achieved the level of interest in the
aircraft has increased substantially. What we see happening is that a
number of countries which were previously looking at more costly aircraft
are now expressing an interest at understanding of the Gripen," he explains.

Reeves pointed the group offers a non-aligned aircraft which might be
attractive to some countries in the region.

It also offer extensive offset programs which are not limited to the
military sector, but include health, transport, etc. As part of major
defence contract most countries require suppliers to undertake inward
investments, usually equal to 100 percent of the contract

[Yahoo25]

From flight international





Potential buyers of the Gripen are given the opportunity to buy US or European armaments, or to go a "third way", by acquiring weaponry from other sources such as Brazil, Israel, Russia and South Africa. The last of these will this year finalise its selection of a weapons package for its Gripens, which is expected to include the indigenous Denel R-Darter beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM). South Africa's first aircraft will be handed over in 2006, with full-rate deliveries to start the following year.

The Swedish air force's operational test and evaluation squadron late last year staged trials with GBU-series laser-guided bombs and unguided ordnance, while the Gripen also demonstrated its ability to carry two Taurus Systems KEPD-350 stand-off missiles. Current weapons-clearance activities include tests with the Swedish RBS15 anti-ship missile and Israeli Litening III targeting pod, and work will continue early this year to approve two new weapons selected by the Hungarian defence ministry: Raytheon's AIM-120C5 AMRAAM air-to-air and AGM-65G Maverick air-to-surface missiles.

Saab is also conducting initial work with a helmet-mounted display for the South African Air Force, and this will assist the future integration of BGT's IRIS-T short-range air-to-air missile. The JAS39 has also been selected as the lead platform for firing trials of MBDA's Meteor BVRAAM from next year. Initial firings will take place at Sweden's Vidsel test range, before launches in 2008-9 against fast-moving and agile targets off Scotland.

Introduction of the C/D-standard Gripen does not mark the end of development work on the aircraft, says Saab, which is investing its own money to study ways of increasing the fighter's range. Rejecting the trend among fighter manufacturers to add conformal fuel tanks to aircraft, the manufacturer says range increases could be achieved through improvements to the Gripen's Volvo Aero RM12 engine, or by adding more fuel internally through improvements in manufacturing techniques. Saab says it needs one or two customers to request such enhancements before fully pursuing them.

"We have some solutions, but haven't seen anyone who wants to pay for them yet," Saab says.

Further growth options include the potential to uprate the RM12 and to develop the two-seat JAS39D as a command and control platform, acting as a flight leader for a number of fighters or unmanned combat air vehicles. The Gripen could also be made available at a down-rated specification to serve as an advanced jet trainer, possibly through the proposed 12-nation Advanced European Jet Pilot Training programme, says Saab.

A firm supporter of the Gripen programme, the Swedish air force continues to show interest in several proposed enhancements. "One or two areas will materialise in the near future where the air force will take the lead, but other customers will follow," says Saab. The most likely near-term initiatives centre on the introduction of additional weapon types and enhanced electronic-warfare equipment, such as towed decoys, it says.

It is still early days, but Gripen International has made a solid start on the export stage. A positive conclusion to negotiations with the Czech government will see the Saab/BAE joint venture more than a quarter of the way to its sales goal. But success in Brazil, where the Gripen is reportedly running a close second to the Su-35, would bring real cause for celebration

[bring_it_on]

Personally i dont think the a-50 or f-50 will be in the class of the gripen in terms of all round performance however this does not mean that they cannot be succesful in their own sence. The problem of american parts wont or should not be that big of a problem specially when it comes to engines. SK is confident that the A-50 and T-50 will have considerable foriegn sales. the one advantage that user nations have is that they can buy the basic trainer and over the years upgrade it to the a-50 standard which is a positive in a econimically consious Defence budget that many countries around the world have. there are quite a bit of Mig's out there in need for replacement and will need replacement as well as many vipers and other western aircraft getting a aircraft such as the t-50 gives an added benefit for economically concious countries to maintain a well prepared air-force as well as have some sort of ECONOMICAL high tech. Not only the T-50 but many other similar aircraft will be able to exploit this posible market and it should be interesting over the next decade to see where things go with this market.

[GoldenDragon]

The T-50's main sales will come from the trainer space not the light attack. The Gripen probably won't be the main opponent but the Hawk or even the MiG AT or Yak 130 (though again because of US components, the Golden Eagle probably won't be competing in nations using a lot of Russian equipment.)

[bring_it_on]

it definately can compete in those nations because the competition is so intence there is huge defence lobby. a decade ago no one even in their wildest imagination could believe that UAE would get the kind of aircraft they got....things can change very rapidly specially if SK persues it with enthusiasm

[WACHENR0DER]

Unfortunately all deals are not "the proper" deal you are seeking, almost every aircraft deal this past 20 years either involves leasing, offsets, financial aid, etc. I ask you to provide a better example of how much a Gripen does cost in comparison to the 20-22 million target the Golden Eagle is aiming for, even at the lowest cost you have posted (in the 30s) it is still significantly cheaper. The Austrian deal best showed the various pricing based on payment stages, between the Gripen and Typhoon, with the Gripen showing itself not to be as cheap as claimed. Furthermore, with LM heavily involved with the Golden Eagle, could Sweden match the possible offsets from both S.Korea and the US?

Further more, as for the climb rates, could you post some links stating some more as you stated

" that 37000ft/minute is sea-level climb rate not from brake release like Gripen. Gripen S/L climbrate is over 50,000 ft/minute."

when the stats and links I gave for both the Gripen and Golden Eagle do not mention sea=level climb rate and break release. It simply just stated how far it could climb and how long it takes.

[crobato]

I think that 0.94 TWR for the Gripen is slightly optimistic. It's definitely not computed with AAMs factored in. With some missiles and the pilot's weight, the figure would drop to around 0.90 to 0.91.

[Srbin]

Regardless of their technical performance and tech in them, they will both be plagued by foreign parts in them, especially the Golden Eagle, where as the engines, weapons, some sensors are all American which really needs American approval for export, same can be said about the Gripen. The Gripen has been around for a while now, yet F-50, LCA, FC-1 and J-10 still have to be developed. If maybe the Koreans make a special export version of the F-50 with Russian weapons and avionics, they wouldn't have to worry about US and the political issues.

[bring_it_on]

If maybe the Koreans make a special export version of the F-50 with Russian weapons and avionics, they wouldn't have to worry about US and the political issues.


would be better and easier to use Isreili weapons and avionics as by doing so might rekindle isreili interest into the T-50..

[troung]

“Unless the US starts passing out the AMRAAM, the FC-1 would be highly attractive because of this. Alan Warnes in the latest AFM said in an opening editorial that the FC-1 could revolutionize not only the PAF but other small air forces around the world.”

Well the AIM-120 is widely exported and even it seems Jordan will soon get it. Even with the recent Israeli lobbying Jordan is still likely to get the AIM-120. So lets be honest the AIM-120 is the most widely exported ARH BVR missile (Denmark, Thailand, ROC, ROK, Singapore, Israel, Greece, Turkey to name a few) in the world out stripping the R-77E (Russia, Malaysia, India, China, Peru) and MICA-EM (France, Qatar, ROC, UAE and soon Greece). So its hardly impossible for a nation to get as long as they play ball.

You have to be a special case not to get it or even not be on the waiting list. Egypt and Saudi Arabia are on the waiting list to be cleared and the RSAF has had their planes hooked up for the AIM-120. The three nations I doubt will get it of course are Indonesia, Pakistan and Venezuela. Even Thailand, Bahrain and Singapore have it. Chile will get it as will the UAE (in big numbers BTW). The AIM-120 in Malaysia seems to be being used as a carrot for an F/A-18F sale.

So for the topic;

Imma wait and see how it sells and not guess right now.

[GoldenDragon]

Well the AIM-120 is widely exported and even it seems Jordan will soon get it. Even with the recent Israeli lobbying Jordan is still likely to get the AIM-120. So lets be honest the AIM-120 is the most widely exported ARH BVR missile (Denmark, Thailand, ROC, ROK, Singapore, Israel, Greece, Turkey to name a few) in the world out stripping the R-77E (Russia, Malaysia, India, China, Peru) and MICA-EM (France, Qatar, ROC, UAE and soon Greece). So its hardly impossible for a nation to get as long as they play ball.


The AMRAAM from what I last read was exported to about 20 countries, so if you list Denmark, then you might as well list the UK, Holland and just about most of Western Europe. That's something that we already know.

But the US is not willing sign over the AMRAAM to countries outside its bloc. Obviously Russia or China isn't going to get it.

Non-Western block nations such as Vietnam aren't likely to get it. Even pro-western nations such as Saudi Arabia or Egypt are on a case-by-case, wait and see basis.

Not all countries are willing to play ball or looking to play ball with the US. So there is, and will always be, a niche market. The hard thing for the T/A-50 is that it will have to compete against other western products in markets dominated by the US.

But if it does attempt to open up a non-US market like Vietnam (which has reportedly expressed interest) for the light fighter role, the question of American release of the AMRAAM and other US weapons becomes critical.

And what would be considered "playing ball" for Vietnam so the AMRAAM could be released? Getting rid of its current government?

[troung]

GD;

I never said Vietnam is a likely nation to get the AIM-120 for example (or Cuba, China, NK, Pakistan, Iran etc…). My point was the AIM-120 is not impossible to come by. Many people here seem to think it is impossible for many people to get cleared for it. Yes I am more then aware there is a long list that would not become AIM-120 users due to politics.

And I did not mean to pick on you.

“The hard thing for the T/A-50 is that it will have to compete against other western products in markets dominated by the US.”

I’m of the opinion they will also push it heavily in SE Asia. South Korea is moving to becoming a big arms exporter to South East Asia and has already sold trainers to Indonesia (KT-1B) and the Philippines and Vietnam have also checked out the KT-1B. They also have made sales of ships to the Philippines (Sea Killer and Sea Dolphin) and will be selling Indonesia to submarines in the next few years. They have exported the KIFV to Malaysia. Now I will not go off on a limb and say they will make jet sales to these nations but Korea does seem to have South East Asia in mind for marketing.

They would also do well to push it as an advanced trainer to Middle Eastern nations. I have no idea if any sales will be made but it will be interesting.

“Not all countries are willing to play ball or looking to play ball with the US. So there is, and will always be, a niche market.”

That is a given.

“And what would be considered "playing ball" for Vietnam so the AMRAAM could be released? Getting rid of its current government?”

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Of course I want to see if the F-50 concept sees the light of day.

[bring_it_on]

the problem of aim-120 can easily be solved by using other BVR missiles such as derby...the middle east trainer market wouldnt prob like that but the rest of the countries interested in it might...we are allready seeing the flexibility of lockheed martin to integrate the derby and python missiles onto the f-16 which use a similar radar...also the fact that the apg-63 can itself be replaced by a similar Isreili radar system

[GoldenDragon]

GD;

I never said Vietnam is a likely nation to get the AIM-120 for example (or Cuba, China, NK, Pakistan, Iran etc…). My point was the AIM-120 is not impossible to come by. Many people here seem to think it is impossible for many people to get cleared for it. Yes I am more then aware there is a long list that would not become AIM-120 users due to politics.

It was (and still is) nearly impossible before unless you're close allies of the US.

If not, it would have been handed out anyone with US planes like Saudi Arabia and Egypt years ago, like the AIM-9s.

And I did not mean to pick on you.

I didn't think you were.

But now that I know you had entertained the thought of picking on me, I feel obligated to break your balls.

I’m of the opinion they will also push it heavily in SE Asia. South Korea is moving to becoming a big arms exporter to South East Asia and has already sold trainers to Indonesia (KT-1B) and the Philippines and Vietnam have also checked out the KT-1B. They also have made sales of ships to the Philippines (Sea Killer and Sea Dolphin) and will be selling Indonesia to submarines in the next few years. They have exported the KIFV to Malaysia. Now I will not go off on a limb and say they will make jet sales to these nations but Korea does seem to have South East Asia in mind for marketing.

Don't forget the frigate they sold to Bangladesh. I expressed a long time ago on this board that S Korea would hit the world's military market like they did shipbuilding and automobiles.

In aviation, if there is one country that can push into the low end niche that China has built for itself, it will be th S Koreans. Imagine Western based tech at Far Eastern prices (well not Japanese prices.)

This is one highly competent state backed with a formidable technical base.

SE Asia is an obvious place to start.

They would also do well to push it as an advanced trainer to Middle Eastern nations. I have no idea if any sales will be made but it will be interesting.

Of course, the Golden Eagle is first and foremost an advanced trainer. That's where it'll probably make most of its money and that's the space where KAI will push it.

[troung]

"also the fact that the apg-63 can itself be replaced by a similar Isreili radar system"

It uses the APG-67 not the APG-63 (used by F-15s).

GD;

“It was (and still is) nearly impossible before unless you're close allies of the US.”

Well to even operate American planes you have/had to be a friend of the USA in the first place.

Most American sales are for influence as well as of course money to the companies and those companies then finance campaigns for their local congressmen who then lobby for more sales. And of course the taxpayers take the burden of these deals.

“If not, it would have been handed out anyone with US planes like Saudi Arabia and Egypt years ago, like the AIM-9s.”

“But now that I know you had entertained the thought of picking on me, I feel obligated to break your balls.”

:D :cool: :D

“Don't forget the frigate they sold to Bangladesh.”

I had been mentioning South East Asia but thanks for reminding me.

It does make me wonder if they will market planes there like the KT-1 or A/T-50.

“I expressed a long time ago on this board that S Korea would hit the world's military market like they did shipbuilding and automobiles.”

You’re not the only one that thinks that.

“In aviation, if there is one country that can push into the low end niche that China has built for itself, it will be th S Koreans. Imagine Western based tech at Far Eastern prices (well not Japanese prices.) This is one highly competent state backed with a formidable technical base.”

South Korea could really start to carve out a market in the region and across the world.

“SE Asia is an obvious place to start.”

Of course. The 18 patrol boats the Philippines were very low cost as a way it seems to open the Filipino arms market (along with the surplus F-5As). They are already making rather big sales/trades with Indonesia and of course are looking at Vietnam. If they can keep the price down on the A/T-50 it would make for a good sales pitch as well.

I tend to think they should also try and push their small arms in the region to compete with Singapore over sales to the TNI-AD and PhA.

“Of course, the Golden Eagle is first and foremost an advanced trainer. That's where it'll probably make most of its money and that's the space where KAI will push it.”

Well until the F-50 is ready (or even if they go through with it) it will be a "light" striker and advanced trainer.

[Yahoo25]

Unfortunately all deals are not "the proper" deal you are seeking, almost every aircraft deal this past 20 years either involves leasing, offsets, financial aid, etc. I ask you to provide a better example of how much a Gripen does cost in comparison to the 20-22 million target the Golden Eagle is aiming for, even at the lowest cost you have posted (in the 30s) it is still significantly cheaper. The Austrian deal best showed the various pricing based on payment stages, between the Gripen and Typhoon, with the Gripen showing itself not to be as cheap as claimed. Furthermore, with LM heavily involved with the Golden Eagle, could Sweden match the possible offsets from both S.Korea and the US?

Further more, as for the climb rates, could you post some links stating some more as you stated

" that 37000ft/minute is sea-level climb rate not from brake release like Gripen. Gripen S/L climbrate is over 50,000 ft/minute."

when the stats and links I gave for both the Gripen and Golden Eagle do not mention sea=level climb rate and break release. It simply just stated how far it could climb and how long it takes.





Just look at this deal. How can you price it correctly. Comparisions is more correct in terms of price when same quantity and conditions exist. Gripen atleast in future will be offered with BGT-IRIS, Meteor, Darter and other European PGMs which may not be available to SK except US permission so it gives very big advantage in weopon areas alone.

South African Aerospace, Part 2

Quid Pro Quo; Massive offset package forces arms providers into unfamiliar venture-capitalist role

Robert Wall

19 July 2004
Aviation Week & Space Technology


The South African Air Force will start taking delivery of new trainers and fighters in the next few years, but in some respects the success or failure of the massive arms package won't be known until early next decade.

When the government promulgated the strategic arms procurement in 2000, including the $2.2-billion deal for Hawk trainers and Gripen fighters, it came with a massive industrial benefits package that promised to generate more than $8 billion in offsets with South African companies. To some extent, those economic incentives, rather than military capability, were more influential in getting the contract approved at a time when political leaders for the still young multiracial democracy were leery of defense.

The modernization program has some very vocal detractors. There continue to be court challenges to try to have the arms package halted, although those have largely been unsuccessful. Sentiments may also be changing because there are signs local industry is capitalizing on the deal to win orders not linked directly to the offsets, suggesting there may be long-term, sustainable benefits.

The offset activities can be broadly classified into two groups: defense and national industrial participation obligations. The defense industrial package (DIP) is supposed to total $1.5 billion and has to be generated over a seven-year period. The national, or civil industrial, category has to amount to $7.2 billion; the sum has to be generated during an 11-year period. The clock started ticking in April 2000.

The DIP allows the prime contractors to generate direct offsets across the breadth of military activities, naval systems, ordnance or land programs. Making the task of finding the $1.5 billion in direct work easier is that civil aerospace work also counts against the "defense" total. "We are looking hard at South Africa for A320 leading edges," notes Jonathan Walton, executive vice president of BAE Systems South Africa.

South Africa's government-owned Denel is probably the largest single beneficiary of the direct offset arrangement, with work that includes building the Gripen rear fuselage (not just South Africa's), final assembly of 23 SAAF Hawks, and the helmet tracker system for Eurofighter and Gripen.

BAE Systems also is assisting local companies, particularly those with black ownership, to become potential suppliers. Strengthening such smaller firms is a large priority for the South African government. But in many cases manufacturing and engineering standards are still too low at those firms, which is why BAE Systems has taken on a mentoring role to enable the local suppliers to compete, says Mike Rennardson, director of Hawk, South Africa. One area likely to heavily involve that type of business is the supply of ground support equipment.

At least 30% of the total $8.7-billion package has to come through investments, either by the company or its partner Saab. However, counting against the total are investments by third-party financiers, as long as it is BAE Systems or Saab that allows the funding to flow through loan guarantees or similar arrangements.

The staggering sum for the national industrial program, $7.2 billion, doesn't have to be generated by BAE Systems and Saab alone. The companies make investments in South African enterprises and then receive credit for local and export sales the local entities generate. The arrangement puts the European defense companies in the odd position of having to act as venture capitalists, Walton says. The company will support around 50 projects by the time the offset requirement is met, he estimates--37 such agreements existed by May, in diverse fields such as mining equipment, tourism development, bio-technology, and furniture repair.

Achieving the offset level has become onerous, but company officials recognize it has to be met. The South African government has imposed stiff penalties for non-performance. Moreover, Walton argues that to maintain the company's reputation and to be successful in future international competitions--in South Africa and elsewhere--the complex arrangement has to be brought to fruition.

Outside economic factors increase the burden of fulfilling the industrial agreements. The prices for the aircraft, as for the offset packages, are denominated in U.S. dollars, to protect the South African government from rand fluctuations, BAE Systems officials say. However, the export potential of South African goods is affected by the strong relative value of the rand against the dollar, as well as by high oil prices. Both have made the export of South African goods more expensive and, in turn, complicate meeting offset requirements.

For several smaller companies in South Africa, the arms package has already spurred a growth in business. One example is Midrand-based Aerospace Monitoring and Systems (AMS). The 85-person, privately held business specializes in structures and engine data collection for health use and monitoring systems (HUMS). It also builds a flight data recorder for the Hawk trainer.

Prior to the fixed-wing aircraft deal, the company was working on South Africa's Rooivalk helicopter. But since then there has been a burst of activity translating into contracts beyond those for Hawk and Gripen. Notably, a contract recently was won to supply HUMS for Indian Su-30MKIs, says Christo Weder, managing director at AMS.

AMS officials readily admit the Su-30 deal wouldn't have happened without the company being given the ability to demonstrate its work under the offset deal. That activity "was certainly a credibility builder" and convinced the Indian government to order the HUMS, Weder says. The company has since also won a contract from EADS to provide a ground station for German Eurofighter health and usage analysis.

The initial contract with AMS under the strategic arms package was actually signed in 1996, predating the trainer purchase. BAE Systems formalized its arrangement with AMS for Hawk's HUMS with an eye on the South African competition. Australia's Hawk trainers were the first aircraft to fly with the kit.

Weder says the company hopes to build on its string of successes by adding an aircraft each year to the stable of products it supports. Moreover, company leaders plan to take advantage of a South African government policy to consider aerospace a growth sector, which is freeing up small research and development grants from the Dept. of Trade and Industry. Those can be used to branch into new product areas, Weder hopes.

[Yahoo25]

this give various statistics.
http://www.airtoaircombat.com/detail.asp?id=7



some technical readings regarding Gripen FBW.
http://www.shell.linux.se/erikku/Papers/MartenStaaf07.pdf
http://go.supereva.it/aviation/jas39%20spec.htm?p
Flight test programme
As of the beginning of 1996, over 2000 test flights had successfully been completed.
Separation test with all air to ground, anti ship weapons and Sidewinders have been concluded successfully.

During 1996, about 100 test flights were flown. Their part of the flight test programme concentrated on high alpha and beta flight as well as stall and spin recovery. The aim is to push the envelope in order to decide exactly where the limits should be put, so as to not compromise safety while affording combat pilots maximum performance with ease of handling.

Tests up to an alpha of 28 degrees were concluded with the standard flight control software release which has a preliminary alpha limit of 20 degrees, above which it returns the aircraft to 20 degrees or less.

The second phase with flights up to 55 degrees alpha were conducted with a software release without any alpha limit. The third phase went beyond that, to 110 degrees alpha, while retaining controllability.

It's expected that the final alpha limit will be in the region of 50 degrees.

The Manoeuver Load Limiter will let the pilots give full stick and rudder commands at all times, but by taking into account the present weight, what kinds of external loads are carried, speed, altitude and other data in order to obtain maximum performance enabling the pilots to concentrate on the tactical situation.

Design features
Gripen is designed for the high demands put on flying performance, flexibility, effectiveness, survivability and availability the future air combat environment will put. The designation JAS stands for Jakt (Fighter), Attack (Attack) and Spaning (Reconnaissance) and means every Gripen can fullfill all three mission types.

Flying properties and performance are optimised for fighter missions with high demands on speed, acceleration and turning performance. The combination of delta wing and canards gives the JAS 39 Gripen very good take off and landing performance and superb flying characteristics. The totally integrated avionics makes it a "programmable" aircraft. With the built in flexibility and development potential the whole JAS 39 Gripen system will retain and enhance its effectiveness and potential well into the 21:st century.

Gripen affords far more flexibility than earlier generations of combat aircraft, and it's operating costs will only be about two thirds of those for Viggen, in spite of it being able to in all areas perform at least as well or slightly better, and in some cases much better. This while not being an expensive aircraft to purchase either.


Runway performance
The specification for this aircraft says that must be able to operate from 800 m runways, so actual take off and landing distance is significantly less, and since early on in the programme, all flights from Saab's facility in Linköping are flown from within a 9 m x 800 m outline painted on the runway.


Stopping distance is reduced by extending the relatively large airbrakes; using the control surfaces to push the aircraft down enabling the brakes to be used harder; tilting the canards forwards, making them into large airbrakes and also pushing the nose gear - which also has brakes - down.
So even without thrust reversing, which would have made the aircraft heavier and less affordable, the stopping distance does not exceed that of Viggen.

The internal computer network
Gripen uses Ericsson processors programmed in Pascal-D80 and Ada and has five duplicated databuses, assigned to different tasks, all with several levels of backup operating modes.

The cockpit and canopy
The main instruments are three MFDs and the wide angle HUD. Control is by a short centrally mounted stick and a side mounted system hand controller/throttle.

Backup systems
Should the main generator fail, there's an APU which is also used to provide power on the ground, and batteries.

The escape system
Gripen is fitted with Martin-Baker 10LS seats which permits safe ejections at speeds up to 1150 km/h at sea level, at zero altitude and speed and down to 100 m altitude inverted flight.

Two seater

To begin with, the two-seat variant was said to be considered unnecessary, as simulators are very good today.

But two seater aircraft aren't useful just for teaching pilots to fly the aircraft. In Swedish use, it will not be much used for conversion training, as Gripen is considered easy to fly, but mostly for tactical training and have a significant tactical role. It will be fully combat capable, apart from having no gun and less fuel.

Basic data
Gripen is a lightweight fighter, with an empty weight of about six tons, a normal take off weight of less than nine tons and a max take off weight of in the current version less than 13 tons. It's a bit over 14 m long.

It's supersonic at all altitudes.

Armament
Gripen is able to carry a very wide range of armaments on its eight hardpoints.

Background and history
In 1982 decided to build a small, true multi-role aircraft, made possible by advances in several fields.

The first prototype flew 9:th Dec 1988.

Alternate configurations
Several layouts were studied, in the end an unstable canard layout was adopted, as it would give the greatest benefits to performance, as it gives a high onset of pitch rate and low drag enabling the aircraft to be faster, have longer range and carry a larger useful payload.

Partners
Gripen is made by the consortium IG JAS, which consists of Saab Military Aircraft, BAE Systems, Saab-BAe Gripen AB, Ericsson Saab Avionics, Ericsson Microwave Systems, Celsius Aerotech and Volvo Aero Corporation.

It is adapted for, marketed and supported on the international marked of the joint company Saab-BAe Gripen AB.

Apart from the above companies, the international content of Gripen is high, with 60% coming from NATO countries and 70% from EU nations, so close to 30% of the content is from USA.

The name
"Gripen" means "the Griffin" in English, which is a mythical and heraldic animal with the head of an eagle and the body of a lion. See the Merriam-Webster and Encyclopædia Britannica for definitions and Google image search if you want to see how it looks.

[crobato]

"this give various statistics.
http://www.airtoaircombat.com/detail.asp?id=7"

That site you gave isn'tvery accurate about the Gripen's numbers.

[Sameer]

What seems to be so revolutionary about the FC-1?

BVR capability to 3rd world air forces


However you can get BVR missiles from the US, France or RUSSIA, Russia will sell to almost anyone who wants to pay for it, if the Ethipians could get themselves Su-27s equipped with Alamos a few years ago, that too they went for the Alamo because of cost, there is no reason why no country can't get the R-77 unless you are North Korea and Uncle gets really really angry.
The French too are more than willing to sell

It is better to look at cost of BVR rather than the supply of BVR

[bring_it_on]

dont forget the isreilis with the derby missile..i see a huge potential for it (and its succesors)over the years

[US Agent]

BAE Systems Awarded $80 Mn in Contracts Related to Korean T-50 Golden Eagle Aircraft

(Source: BAE Systems; issued Aug. 3, 2004)

LOS ANGELES, Calif. --- BAE Systems has been awarded contracts worth more than $80 million related to the Republic of Korea’s production of the T-50 Golden Eagle military aircraft.

The contracts call for BAE Systems Platform Solutions to deliver flight control computers and hardware kits, control stick assemblies, rate sensor assemblies, accelerometer sensor assemblies, and test equipment. The contracts also provide for in-country production support and training in the Republic of Korea.

BAE Systems, as a subcontractor to Korean Aerospace Industries and LG Innotek Ltd., will begin phase one deliveries in December 2004 and complete them in October 2006. Phase two deliveries will begin in 2006 and be completed in 2010.

The T-50 Golden Eagle is a supersonic, advanced jet trainer and lead-in fighter trainer being jointly developed and produced by Lockheed Martin Aeronautics and KAI for the Republic of Korea Air Force. The T-50 will be used to train pilots to fly current and next-generation fighters and will also be marketed for export.

“We are delighted to be part of the team associated with the production of this advanced aircraft,” said Tom Herring, vice president of Integrated Solutions for BAE Systems Platform Solutions.

BAE Systems Platform Solutions is a major supplier of subsystems and hardware for the T-50, also providing the aircraft’s head-up display and integrated mission display computer.

[Sameer]

I doubt that light fighters will find themselves a market, not because they lack the capability but because the market is already flooded with 2nd and 4th gen fighters, let us look at it this way, Ethipia bought Su-27s for Christ's sake, other countries are buying F-16s, Mirages etc, when the light fighters enter the market, game theory predicts that the present established aerospace companies will simply have to dumb their old 4th gen gear, heck even a tech transfer won't be a bad business idea. As far as missiles, as I said before, you can get bvr missiles from anywhere, as for the Derby, a great missile and a great potential, of course Arab countries would be out of the running but they can get Uncle's missiles or Russian, or French etc etc etc

[Yahoo25]

"this give various statistics.
http://www.airtoaircombat.com/detail.asp?id=7"

That site you gave isn'tvery accurate about the Gripen's numbers.
Only frontpage weight data is inaccurate. Inside it is accurate. 78% of 8300KG F-16C comes to around 6600KG.
http://www.airtoaircombat.com/background.asp?id=7&bg=118
The Gripen is a true lightweight fighter by modern standards. It has 78% of the empty weight of an F-16C, and is about half the empty weight of the Viggen, the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, or the Dassault Rafale


http://www.saairforce.co.za/
this site gives 6600KG weight for JAS-39B

[Yahoo25]

What seems to be so revolutionary about the FC-1?

BVR capability to 3rd world air forces


However you can get BVR missiles from the US, France or RUSSIA, Russia will sell to almost anyone who wants to pay for it, if the Ethipians could get themselves Su-27s equipped with Alamos a few years ago, that too they went for the Alamo because of cost, there is no reason why no country can't get the R-77 unless you are North Korea and Uncle gets really really angry.
The French too are more than willing to sell

It is better to look at cost of BVR rather than the supply of BVR
The thing revolutionary about FC-1 is that it will be cheapest new 4th generation Multirole fighter with wide choice of weopons from different sources depending upon political connection of customer.

RC400/MICA
GRIFO S-7/Aspide2/Darter
ZHUK-M/R-77
ELTA-2032/Derby
Type 14XX/SD-10

[crobato]

Notice how close these planes are in terms of weight to power ratio

Plane: Empty Weight, Thrust, Internal Fuel capacity
Gripen: 6620kg, 8350kg, 2260kg.
FC-1: 6410kg, 8300kg, 2300kg (est.)
F-CK-1: 6450kg, 8900kg, 2200kg (est.)

The F-CK-1 actually has a slight lead. It is said to out accelerate even a Starfighter.

The Gripen being slightly heavier than the other aircraft is understandable due to its extensive avionics, and the fact it's probably the only plane there whose structure is strengthened and rated to 9G.

The T-50 being a dual seater is going to weigh more than the rest, but if you can create a single seater variant that weighs in at 6500kg empty, you can create a viable low cost fighter.

[Yahoo25]

Gripen was designed from beginning to combat Flanker.


Far from being a costly national embarrassment, the Gripen could become the 21s century export equivalent of the MiG-21 or the F-16.

The reasons for this extraordinary turnaround in Gripen's fortunes are partly circumstantial. Ever since the Cold War ended and defence budgets started to become tailored to smaller, leaner, more flexible forces, air forces all over the world began looking for multi-role capability at markedly reduced cost. JAS stands for Jakt Attack Spaning -- fighter, attack, reconnaissance -- three capabilities within a single airframe, all at the touch of a button. Critics have called it a jack of all trades and master of none, but this is plainly untrue. The Swedish military has always kept a close eye on the threat and maintains a first rate technical intelligence capability. Mirroring the conclusions of their NATO counterparts -- conclusions that neutral Sweden had t keep firmly to itself for as long as it was caught between the superpowers -- Swedish tech-int experts saw the Soviet Su-27 Flanker and its enhanced derivative, now known as the Su-35, as the greatest air threat its next-generation air force was likely to face.

When it drew up the specification for the JAS 39, therefore, the Swedish Air Force did so with the same priorities in mind as the people guiding the design of the Eurofighter and France's Rafale.

"Of course, air-to-air was the priority," says Brig Gen Rolf Clementson, recently retired from the Swedish Air Force and now a consultant to Saab. With the Su-27 threat on the doorstep -- at its closest point Russia is less than 20 km away -- Gripen, unlike EF 2000 and Rafale, didn't have to be a large, twin-engined aircraft. Gripen's small size not only gives it great agility and what Gen Clementson describes as "stealth by birth," but also a flyaway price, according to Saab executives, that is one third that of EF 2000 and Rafale.

The devaluation of the krona -- by as much as 30 per cent -- has also helped make all Swedish aerospace products extremely competitive, industry officials say. The country's entry into the European Community, anticipated after elections in September, is also awaited eagerly by the aerospace and defence community.

Integrating the whole

In an extension of a device employed on the Viggen, and with it an operational concept that is uniquely Swedish, the Gripen also makes use of a data-link that allows it to exchange radar information with other JAS 39s, Sweden's new Erieye airborne early warning aircraft, as well as ground stations.

The last great key to Gripen's aerial survivability, Gen Clementson claims, resides in its high mission readiness rate: good availability (high mean time between failure, easy overhaul procedure and rapid turnaround time), he says, gives a commander the surge capacity he needs to win a war. Once it had been optimised for the air-to-air role, adding Gripen's attack and reconnaissance features was comparatively simple. The trick has been to integrate the whole in a neat, compact, user-friendly design.

[WACHENR0DER]

Notice how close these planes are in terms of weight to power ratio

Plane: Empty Weight, Thrust, Internal Fuel capacity
Gripen: 6620kg, 8350kg, 2260kg.
FC-1: 6410kg, 8300kg, 2300kg (est.)
F-CK-1: 6450kg, 8900kg, 2200kg (est.)

The F-CK-1 actually has a slight lead. It is said to out accelerate even a Starfighter.

The Gripen being slightly heavier than the other aircraft is understandable due to its extensive avionics, and the fact it's probably the only plane there whose structure is strengthened and rated to 9G.

The T-50 being a dual seater is going to weigh more than the rest, but if you can create a single seater variant that weighs in at 6500kg empty, you can create a viable low cost fighter.

The two seater Golden Eagle actually weighs roughly the same as that Ching Kuo figure you used at 6440 kg, 8030kg, 2205 kg of internal fuel.

Apart from the engine responsiveness issue of the Ching Kuo, I really like the aircraft.. it's done what other light combat aircraft's are trying to do, just 10 years earlier. But I am under the impression that it is very unlikely to find export orders yes?

Yahoo:

Could you post up links to those Gripen articles instead of posting the actual article? I'd rather not have the thread turn into a Gripen brochure, but instead have comparisons where links are used as reference.

As for the Gripen, I've no doubt that it's a capable fighter however as stated numerous times before, it's simply too expensive for a light combat aircraft. Now avoiding all the Saab advertisement for it's aircraft.. the use of the Gripen is quite clear and that it is an aircraft meant for defense rather than of offensive nature. No matter what combat systems are installed in the aircraft, all light combat aircraft obviously show that it has low internal fuel capacity and that the Gripen will be a short ranged aircraft that will rely on it's net-centric warfare capabilities to defeat larger and more capable aircraft. However to accomplish this, the Gripen will need to be fielded in significant numbers, something where most of it's export orders are lacking (generally 25 or lower). Part of this has to do with it's price. The point of having a light fighter is to also be able to buy it in quantity, something both the FC-1 and T/A-50 is aiming to accomplish.

For the price on some of the Gripen deals, a country could get heavier and larger aircraft such as used F-16s that have or will be modified, and in some cases new F-16s that are funded by the US, late model MiG-29s, etc. They may not operate as cheaply as the Gripen, but for a little more (at least with the F-16 and M2K's case) they can carry more, carry it farther and can be used at a more offensive role than the Gripen.

For these reasons it's clear that there is an extent to the roles of which you can take your light weight combat aircraft to, and having the Gripen trying to match the capabilities of more offensive oriented aircraft such as the Rafale, Typhoon, etc will make it even more expensive.

It is unlikely that we'll see the Gripen being exported to nations outside of Europe, bar S.Africa, as the rest of the world that does need airplanes, will either outside the US's sphere of allies and thus could opt for Russian or the FC-1.. or those close to the west and wanting to benefit from both a cheaper aircraft and the potential offsets both Korea and the US can give.. in this case we see such examples in UAE, Israel, and Vietnam displaying interest.

[crobato]

It's very unlikely the F-CK-1 will ever be exported. The first, which is the most obvious, is that it ****es off Beijing. Second, not so obvious, but equally important, is that the US will not allow you to second export its technology, especially when it can potentially compete with the F-16.

On the Gripen, I think one of the problems of its marvelous datalinks, is that you need an infrastructure to match them with. Used with a legacy datalink infrastructure, you won't get any more benefit than let's say, an F-16 with Link 16. Third world countries are very unlikely to have such a matching infrastructure and even some NATO countries don't have either.

[Srbin]

Exactly Crobato, that is why the Golden Eagle might have the same problems as the Ching Quo did, too many foreign parts in them that are easily subject to embargoes and etc. So really if you want to buy the Golden Eagle, it's basically like buying American. Also I do not think that the F-50 version will have any export success if it faces something like F-16, F-15 or F-35 in a competition.

[crobato]

Exactly.

Also I find it hard to believe that the "F-50" Golden Eagle is going to stay in the 20-25 million range.

The F-CK-1 was supposed to be under $20 million and inevitably cost like under $30 million. That was in early nineties dollars. You're going to have to consider the inevitable cost overrun and the F-50 plane might actually end up costing well over $30 million in this decade's dollars.

[WACHENR0DER]

thanks for your analysis guys, great replies from everyone so far :)

[Yahoo25]

The two seater Golden Eagle actually weighs roughly the same as that Ching Kuo figure you used at 6440 kg, 8030kg, 2205 kg of internal fuel.

Apart from the engine responsiveness issue of the Ching Kuo, I really like the aircraft.. it's done what other light combat aircraft's are trying to do, just 10 years earlier. But I am under the impression that it is very unlikely to find export orders yes?

Yahoo:

Could you post up links to those Gripen articles instead of posting the actual article? I'd rather not have the thread turn into a Gripen brochure, but instead have comparisons where links are used as reference.

As for the Gripen, I've no doubt that it's a capable fighter however as stated numerous times before, it's simply too expensive for a light combat aircraft. Now avoiding all the Saab advertisement for it's aircraft.. the use of the Gripen is quite clear and that it is an aircraft meant for defense rather than of offensive nature. No matter what combat systems are installed in the aircraft, all light combat aircraft obviously show that it has low internal fuel capacity and that the Gripen will be a short ranged aircraft that will rely on it's net-centric warfare capabilities to defeat larger and more capable aircraft. However to accomplish this, the Gripen will need to be fielded in significant numbers, something where most of it's export orders are lacking (generally 25 or lower). Part of this has to do with it's price. The point of having a light fighter is to also be able to buy it in quantity, something both the FC-1 and T/A-50 is aiming to accomplish.

For the price on some of the Gripen deals, a country could get heavier and larger aircraft such as used F-16s that have or will be modified, and in some cases new F-16s that are funded by the US, late model MiG-29s, etc. They may not operate as cheaply as the Gripen, but for a little more (at least with the F-16 and M2K's case) they can carry more, carry it farther and can be used at a more offensive role than the Gripen.

For these reasons it's clear that there is an extent to the roles of which you can take your light weight combat aircraft to, and having the Gripen trying to match the capabilities of more offensive oriented aircraft such as the Rafale, Typhoon, etc will make it even more expensive.

It is unlikely that we'll see the Gripen being exported to nations outside of Europe, bar S.Africa, as the rest of the world that does need airplanes, will either outside the US's sphere of allies and thus could opt for Russian or the FC-1.. or those close to the west and wanting to benefit from both a cheaper aircraft and the potential offsets both Korea and the US can give.. in this case we see such examples in UAE, Israel, and Vietnam displaying interest.
I usually collecte infomration from a database and other forums so links cannot be provided.
Regarding Gripen you are confusing its capabilities as reason for its lack of export success.
The reason it is not exported widely is because of US engine and Swedish export policies.
Advantage of Gripens over other 4Th generation Fighters like Flankers, MIGs or EF, or Rafale.
1. Lower initial fly away cost.
2. lower operating cost hence more flight hrs for training.
3. ERIEYE is not that expensive. A version without controllers just cost around $100M.
4. 5000KG weopon load is decent. You can launch 4 long range Standoff weopons or 6 BVR which is good for most requirements.

New F-16 on purely commerical basis is more expenisve to acquire and run and US AWACS doesnot come cheaply without AWACS you give all the advantages of a passive attack. 20 Gripens with ERIEYE is far more effective both in defence and offence than Just buying 30 MIG-29s or Flankers or 10 EF.
Off course US can handout some second hand F-16 airframes for free but it does not take anything away from Gripen merits.
Regarding FC-1. Its RD-93 engine alone disqualifies it for Gripen competitor. FC-1 with M-88 engine will be another matter.

[Srbin]

I agree with Crobato, and especially with US weapons and such the cost of F-50 at minimum will be 30mn. However I think if SK wired the F-50 with Russian or Israeli weapons and avionics it might have a good chance of export and it's price might go down.

This is one of the reasons why I would not buy weapons that are full "political packages", ie all their parts are produced in that country, this is why I think some countries should stay away from weapons that would require many foreign parts in them like LCA, J-10 and FC-1(Russian weapons probably), Golden Eagle & CQ(American weapons, avionics and engines of course and such) and to some extend the Gripen. Best to go with something thats not made in many different countries like Russian, American or French fighters.

[bdmilitary]

"

“Don't forget the frigate they sold to Bangladesh.”

I had been mentioning South East Asia but thanks for reminding me.

It does make me wonder if they will market planes there like the KT-1 or A/T-50.

“I expressed a long time ago on this board that S Korea would hit the world's military market like they did shipbuilding and automobiles.”

You’re not the only one that thinks that.

“In aviation, if there is one country that can push into the low end niche that China has built for itself, it will be th S Koreans. Imagine Western based tech at Far Eastern prices (well not Japanese prices.) This is one highly competent state backed with a formidable technical base.”

South Korea could really start to carve out a market in the region and across the world.

“SE Asia is an obvious place to start.”

South Korea exported numerous equipment to Bangladesh including the frigate, patrol boats and electronic equipment.

The Bangladesh and Korean govt also signed MoU's regarding logistics, support, intelligence and ToT of equipment. The Koreans invested heavily in Bangladeshis EPZ's too, they take up 45% of Bangladesh's total FDI even beating traditional allies such as JAPAN and CHINA.

[PLA]

This is one of the reasons why I would not buy weapons that are full "political packages", ie all their parts are produced in that country, this is why I think some countries should stay away from weapons that would require many foreign parts in them like LCA, J-10 and FC-1(Russian weapons probably), Golden Eagle & CQ(American weapons, avionics and engines of course and such) and to some extend the Gripen. Best to go with something thats not made in many different countries like Russian, American or French fighters.

The whole marketing idea of Fc1 is that you can add what you want. If Russian weapons are not ok then why not chinese or SA? But thinking we can buy one nation plane at the moment is a bit silly...

[Srbin]

I actually like the A-50(which is ready now)/F-50 as well as FC-1. They will both have very similar performance all around, and it's their avionics that will make a really big difference. I think a twin seat FC-1 could also be used as a good advanced jet trainer, I mean why NOT? It's as cheaper than the A-50, has some decent space to grow, cheap to run and etc. I think wiring the A-50 with some Israeli weapons/avionics and possibly developing a local Korean made engine it might have some export success.

[F-18 Hamburger]

I actually like the A-50(which is ready now)/F-50 as well as FC-1. They will both have very similar performance all around, and it's their avionics that will make a really big difference. I think a twin seat FC-1 could also be used as a good advanced jet trainer, I mean why NOT? It's as cheaper than the A-50, has some decent space to grow, cheap to run and etc. I think wiring the A-50 with some Israeli weapons/avionics and possibly developing a local Korean made engine it might have some export success.

it just doesn't exist yet ;)

[Nitin_V]

It's very unlikely the F-CK-1 will ever be exported. The first, which is the most obvious, is that it ****es off Beijing. Second, not so obvious, but equally important, is that the US will not allow you to second export its technology, especially when it can potentially compete with the F-16.

On the Gripen, I think one of the problems of its marvelous datalinks, is that you need an infrastructure to match them with. Used with a legacy datalink infrastructure, you won't get any more benefit than let's say, an F-16 with Link 16. Third world countries are very unlikely to have such a matching infrastructure and even some NATO countries don't have either.

You will have to invest in a completely new datalink structure then. Most countries have very limited sensor -n/w integration in the third world, to begin with..

[crobato]

Alternative name for A-50 Golden Eagle is Wei Kuo, foster brother of Ching Kuo. That's because 100 engineers from AIDC involved in the Ching Kuo went to work on the A-50.

[bdmilitary]

I don't know if you guys remember but in some aviation magazine their was an article on the modernisation of the Bangladesh AF. The article stated that the Koreans are trying to market their T-50's apart from other military equipment to Bangladesh.

Bangladesh Navy purchased a $100 million modern frigate [the most advance of its type in the subcontinent at present] and a few patrol vessels so I wouldnt be surprised if BAF purchased the Korean T-50 as BD and RoK have very good relations politically and militarily.

[Arthur]

Alternative name for A-50 Golden Eagle is Wei Kuo, foster brother of Ching Kuo. That's because 100 engineers from AIDC involved in the Ching Kuo went to work on the A-50.
I thought all Taiwanese aircraft got named after members from the CKS-clan? The AT-3 is the Tzu Chiang, the T-CH-1 (and R-CH-1 as well, i guess) Chung Hsing. Family members too, right?

[F-18 Hamburger]

I thought all Taiwanese aircraft got named after members from the CKS-clan? The AT-3 is the Tzu Chiang, the T-CH-1 (and R-CH-1 as well, i guess) Chung Hsing. Family members too, right?
It is, Wei Kuo, 蔣緯國, is Chiang Ching-kuo's brother. But in this case I think Craboto was joking with the name.

[phrozenflame]

"Well the AIM-120 is widely exported and even it seems Jordan will soon get it. Even with the recent Israeli lobbying Jordan is still likely to get the AIM-120"

The ones Jordan will get cannot be fired at Israeli planes I heard. So its basically pointless. Jordan has no other threats apart from Israel.

[Erez]

The ones Jordan will get cannot be fired at Israeli planes I heard. So its basically pointless. Jordan has no other threats apart from Israel.
Why should Israel be a threat over Jordan? we have no border clashes with them, and our peace is the most active peace agreement in the middle east, from economical and security point of views, much more than with Egypt. To say we are a threat to them is pretty hypocritical by Jordan. After all, we do have a peace agreement, and besides - the regime in Jordan is the unstable regime - not Israel's.

Back to the original topic - it seems now that the F/A-50 might lose a big potential customer - the IDF/AF, now that the ATG/IAI Javelin (AJT version) will be produced in Israel and developed mainly for the Israeli air force.

[Srbin]

The ones Jordan will get cannot be fired at Israeli planes I heard. So its basically pointless. Jordan has no other threats apart from Israel.

And technically, how is this possible?

[F-18 Hamburger]

Back to the original topic - it seems now that the F/A-50 might lose a big potential customer - the IDF/AF, now that the ATG/IAI Javelin (AJT version) will be produced in Israel and developed mainly for the Israeli air force.

Yeah man, damn your country for choosing a two engined light aircraft, you should've stuck to a single engine aircraft that's already flying. Just for that, I'm going to have to steal Natalie Portman away from you ;)

[Erez]

Yeah man, damn your country for choosing a two engined light aircraft, you should've stuck to a single engine aircraft that's already flying. Just for that, I'm going to have to steal Natalie Portman away from you
Well the Javelin will fly in the next few weeks. And also I see a great advantage in letting a training pilot to fly in a safer two engined fighter.
And don't you dare to touch Natalie :)

[Sameer]

I am also wondering what wizzard came up with the theory that Jordanian Amrams if puchased will not be able to hit any plane from any country.

[Srbin]

Well the Javelin will fly in the next few weeks. And also I see a great advantage in letting a training pilot to fly in a safer two engined fighter.
And don't you dare to touch Natalie

Next few weeks? Israel could've went for the M-346 if they wanted twin engined

[phrozenflame]

from f-16.net

"The United States was said to have agreed to an Israeli request to restrict the capability and use of advanced air-to-air missiles to Jordan and ban their sale to the rest of the Arab world."

[Erez]

Srbin, you are forgeting two things:
1) The current trainer, the Tzukit (Fuga Magister) is also twin engined.
2) The Javelin will be better suited for the Israeli needs. Also, there is a possiblity that it will be financed using the American aid.

[docrjay]

What about the RC-400-- Mica combination for the A-50? This would be possible right?
Get 12 JAS 39 C/D Gripen doing dedicated A2A and 24 of the A-50 doing A2G and antishipping and secondary A2A with MICA BVR. This would be a potent force. A total of 36 aircraft all multirole. Give it tanker support and a couple of Erieye AWACS. Nice.......

[Srbin]

What about the RC-400-- Mica combination for the A-50? This would be possible right?
Get 12 JAS 39 C/D Gripen doing dedicated A2A and 24 of the A-50 doing A2G and antishipping and secondary A2A with MICA BVR. This would be a potent force. A total of 36 aircraft all multirole. Give it tanker support and a couple of Erieye AWACS. Nice.......

And why not just have one single type doing this? When it comes to maintenance, commonality and such it would be a lot more cost effective.

[briantk]

So here's what I know so far.
I know Israel expressed interest on A-50.
Lockheed Martin displayed A-50 model to UAE, try to sell it to UAE saying it complement well with their latest acquisition of F-16.
Vietnam had also express interest in A-50 as well.
SEA may be a potential market.
Aside from Hawk, A-50 is the only next generation of LIFT are ahead in development compared to others. MAKO I believe is still in blueprint stage, Aemarchi is in mock up stage, and MIG-AT have just had first flight test.

I have seen pic of souped up version of A-50 in a model format. It has AMRAAM on the rail, with Sidewinders and cluster munitions, IRST and the caption said that pilot will have HMD. Tried to find the pic but no luck.

PS: Until recently, I thought China was preoccupied with big projects like J-10 and neglected F-7 project. So I though SK has potential to sell F-50 to Pakistan. Since Pakistan is in favour with US, SK wouldn't have any difficulty merchandising to Pakistan. Then China accelated JF-17 program and Pakistan are now fully committed to it. RATS!!

[Tiger_01]

>>>PS: Until recently, I thought China was preoccupied with big projects like J-10 and neglected F-7 project. So I though SK has potential to sell F-50 to Pakistan. Since Pakistan is in favour with US, SK wouldn't have any difficulty merchandising to Pakistan. Then China accelated JF-17 program and Pakistan are now fully committed to it. RATS!!

Pakistani government is intrested in Gripen. They can probably not buy it cause of US components (?). Besides that the Swedish do not sell offensive weapons to dangerous spots. There are US parts in F-50 so that would make it still problematic. Besides that it is a big question which avionics and BVR missile will be sold. IMHO no Amraam. Look at Egypt. Without that the plane is not an option. And Pakistani government did even delay foreign avionics for their JF17. So they are speeding up to get some kind of BVR. Probably they saw the effects of that in their training "Anatolian Eagle".

What wonders is that UAE is allowed to have super high tech plane and Amraam. What makes them different? And are they no danger for Israel?

[Nitin_V]

Tiger_01,

Israel and Turkey have a long standing defense relationship. Neither regards the other as a threat. Israel ostensibly uses the Turkish airspace for training. Whereas the Turks buy Israeli defense hardware.
(And crib about it from time to time like all respectable customers should do:D)

Similarly UAE is a moderate Muslim state, an open and reliable US ally with loads of moolah- so they get Block 60's.

Pakistan doesnt have the cash nor is it regarded as reliable(leaving the politics of "why" apart) so it wont get the F16's with AMRAAM's. Too volatile for US's comfort I am afraid.

But they might offer early Blocks with Sparrows...and then sell India P3C's. The wonders of a "conflict economy"! Make money off both sides. :)

[Yahoo25]

Tiger_01,

Israel and Turkey have a long standing defense relationship. Neither regards the other as a threat. Israel ostensibly uses the Turkish airspace for training. Whereas the Turks buy Israeli defense hardware.
(And crib about it from time to time like all respectable customers should do:D)

Similarly UAE is a moderate Muslim state, an open and reliable US ally with loads of moolah- so they get Block 60's.

Pakistan doesnt have the cash nor is it regarded as reliable(leaving the politics of "why" apart) so it wont get the F16's with AMRAAM's. Too volatile for US's comfort I am afraid.

But they might offer early Blocks with Sparrows...and then sell India P3C's. The wonders of a "conflict economy"! Make money off both sides. :)
UAE and moderate? on which planet are you living. They have officially recognized Taliban and is among the biggest spender on there way of islam. Dont be fooled by glitter of Abu Dhabi or Dubai.

[Srbin]

Aside from Hawk, A-50 is the only next generation of LIFT are ahead in development compared to others. MAKO I believe is still in blueprint stage, Aemarchi is in mock up stage, and MIG-AT have just had first flight test.

Ahead in development? AFAIR Yak-130 production variant has already flown and it is about to enter service, M-346 prototype made it's first flight not long after the A-50 did and Mig-AT wont enter any production yet unless it is bought by foreign customer.

[phrozenflame]

Tiger_01,

Israel and Turkey have a long standing defense relationship. Neither regards the other as a threat. Israel ostensibly uses the Turkish airspace for training. Whereas the Turks buy Israeli defense hardware.
(And crib about it from time to time like all respectable customers should do:D)

Similarly UAE is a moderate Muslim state, an open and reliable US ally with loads of moolah- so they get Block 60's.

Pakistan doesnt have the cash nor is it regarded as reliable(leaving the politics of "why" apart) so it wont get the F16's with AMRAAM's. Too volatile for US's comfort I am afraid.

But they might offer early Blocks with Sparrows...and then sell India P3C's. The wonders of a "conflict economy"! Make money off both sides. :)


UAE got its F-16s due to Iran, not anything else. American Self-Interest Dominates what is to be sold where.

[Nitin_V]

UAE and moderate? on which planet are you living. They have officially recognized Taliban and is among the biggest spender on there way of islam. Dont be fooled by glitter of Abu Dhabi or Dubai.

At least they are not as open about their "tendencies" as their other Islamic friends are.And they jump up and down at Uncle Sam's bidding, which cant hurt ;)

[PLA]

Is UAE more democratic then the other arabic nations? It surely has enough cash to pay for these machines. But it seems to be bit strange that they suddenly have so many super high tech planes and almost none internal pilots. There was a row in the past about maybe UAE using foreign pilots. I know that in Turkey thay had only UAE pilots to get used to F16. But is UAE able to handle it internal? Do they have enough UAE engineers? Or is it like the KSA contract where pilots and enineers are hired from western nations?

[Srbin]

Is UAE more democratic then the other arabic nations? It surely has enough cash to pay for these machines. But it seems to be bit strange that they suddenly have so many super high tech planes and almost none internal pilots. There was a row in the past about maybe UAE using foreign pilots. I know that in Turkey thay had only UAE pilots to get used to F16. But is UAE able to handle it internal? Do they have enough UAE engineers? Or is it like the KSA contract where pilots and enineers are hired from western nations?

As it appears they do not have half the pilots they need to run these machines, I am not exactly sure about the maintenance technicians either. Practically the whole Saudi AF is maintained by foreigners, flown though by Saudis. One of my friends from school, he's Pakistani and his dad used to fly for the UAEAF a while ago, and was an instructor on the Hawk I think(he's an instructor on the Hawk in the NATO training school in Canada) and he says that tehy are very corrupt, that many pilots would not pass anything but would still get through with connections.

[Yahoo25]

At least they are not as open about their "tendencies" as their other Islamic friends are.And they jump up and down at Uncle Sam's bidding, which cant hurt ;)
They are pretty open about there tendencies but people are either blinded or bought off by there money(like millions of Indians working there). The biggest Islaimc centers in pak are funded by UAE long before even Saudi can come into this business.
http://www.moralitynotmoney.com/

Students for an Ethical Divinity School was founded in response to the Harvard Divinity School’s accepting $2.5 million from the President of the United Arab Emirates, Sheikh Zayed bin Sultan al-Nahyan in July, 2000, for the creation of an endowed professorship in Islamic Religious Studies.

Zayed funds the Abu Dhabi-based Zayed Center for Coordination and Follow-Up, a prominent think-tank of the Arab League founded in 1999. The Zayed Center, described on its website “as the fulfillment of the vision of Sheikh Zayed,” promotes Holocaust denial, anti-American conspiracy theories, and hate-speech in its lectures, symposia, and publications. By accepting Zayed’s money, the Divinity School honors and validates the hate-speech he promotes. Harvard would never accept money from a Ku Klux Klan financier. The hate funded by the Sheikh’s money is no less abhorrent.

Amnesty International has repeatedly documented the terrible human rights record of Sheikh Zayed’s U.A.E.: lack of elections, corporal punishment of political prisoners, and trafficking of Bangladeshi child slaves for camel races. Sheikh Zayed has ruled as the U.A.E.’s unelected president since 1971.

[PLA]

So it is a big and correct question how UAE got these (not democracy or good behaviour) and what they will do to fly them (no internal good enough pilots).

But the strange part is that they still sell the high tech to this nation. That the combination of not good pilots, not real democracy, able to pay a lot is good enough, able to use against Iranian developments is making this a good sell while at the same time selling outdated F16's for Pakistani airforce needs to go through millions of checks. I doubt they Pakistani can get dangerous for Israel. I doubt they can get more dangerous to India. I doubt they will fall in hands of terrorists. It is probably to stop tech flowing into China. Just like the fact that India is more supported to counter China. So UAE case is against Iran and Pak case is against China. Anyway feel free to give another perspective.

[Arshad]

Well UAE cant be a threath to the US, so its safe and provided with weapons even its undemocratic and practises a very dictorial regime. Its just with the Saudis. If you are usefull the US doesnt looks much at your "other deeds", unlike europe where some caution is taken. Most countrys deal in this kind of a way.

[Srbin]

US Interest comes before anything, that includes democracy.

[F-18 Hamburger]

All this bashing on American export policies.. before you guys get wet over French, Russian, etc weapons systems keep in mind that the Russians have also factored in politics in their arms exports, just ask the Chinese. Or the French who work by appealing to those with more $$$, just ask the Taiwanese or the Israelis, or how they work with spares.. ask the Peruvians. That's why if possible, it's best to indigenous the production of as many components as you can.. duh