PAK FA news

[Vympel]

Electronic Mock-up of Fifth Generation Airplane Created in Russia

An electronic mock-up of the fifth generation airplane has been created in Russia, the air force commander-in-chief, General-Colonel Vladimir Mikhaylov, reported to Interfax-AVN on Thursday.

“Right now active work on the fifth generation airplane is on-going. It is very painstaking. An electronic Mock-up of the fifth generation airplane already has been created. Right now we are studying it, analyzing it. The airplane is turning out very well,” he said after a meeting of the air force military council on the road, which took place at the base of the 929th state flight test center in Akhtubinsk.

V. Mikhaylov declared that, “the delivery to the troops of reliable and effective aviation equipment is impossible without the clear-cut organization and assurance of tests.” “Deficiencies which are permitted with the creation of aviation equipment and not uncovered in the process of tests are sources of negative factors which have a universal nature for an aviation system," he said.

"The goal of the meeting on-the-road of the air force military council, the CinC noted, is the exposure at the place of the problems and the adoption of pressing measures so that in the very near future we are able to test new aircraft equipment actively for a more accelerated advancement of it into the air force.”

“The rash cut-back of the flight test center has led to the fact that those buildups which we had and have have begun to be tested with a time delay. But today we have fixed all this. Interesting and prospective things await us ahead in the creation and assimilation of new aviation equipment," V. Mikhaylov said.

Source: 30.10.03, Interfax-AVN

[WACHENR0DER]

an electronic mock up? sounds like they made the CG of the aircraft.

[Vympel]

Originally posted by WACHENR0DER
an electronic mock up? sounds like they made the CG of the aircraft.

Yup. Don't you just love clunky Russian translated terms for things?

[matt]

LOL @ CG i think its a bit more complex then a doodle on 3Ds


I like it, Rapid prototyping and concurrent engineering finally being used widely, might be seeing the PAKFA fly by the end of this decade after all.

[lordofjedi]

I wonder where India's contribution is (if at all there is any) to the PAK-FA. It will be very good if they are deeply involved from the concept and design stage itself.

[xanadu]

Anything more on this aircraft. The las that was heard here was the Indian prime quoting that Russia and India had already started work on it. Any news coming out of Russia on the state of the project.

[Indian1973]

so is this going to the iaf's MCA - replacement for Mig23/27/M2k/Jag in 2015-20

or india is planning MCA as a separate project?

[gumbo]

MCA has no relation to the PAK-FA.

[crobato]

It is a computer based simulation of the aircraft.

[Srbin]

I think India will just buy the PAK-FA later on like they did with the SU-27 and Mig-29.

[xanadu]

Just a couple of days back read in a newspaper that an outgoing Russian Diplomat had commented that Russia and India were thinking of inviting China to co-develop the Fifth Generation Aircraft. This if true will certainly set the cat amongst the pigeons.
But how far is it true keeping in mind that the Russians wouldnt wan to give the Chinese top of the line techology and India still having reservations about China. For all the talk of an advance in Chinese technology the fact still is that China has a long way to go to catch up with the years of Experience the Russians have.

[Karna]

I think India will just buy the PAK-FA later on like they did with the SU-27 and Mig-29.
That era has gone. Now its codevelopment all the way.

[Vympel]

AKhK Sukhoy to Present Fifth Generation Fighter Draft to Russian Federation Defense Ministry in 2004

An international aerospace exhibition is taking place from 18 through 24 July at the Farnborough airfield in Great Britain. This exhibition is held every 2 years and is the largest exposition of a similar sort not only in Great Britain, but in the whole world.

The first-rate Russian aviation holding company, the Sukhoy Company, will be one of the Russian participants. On the eve of its opening, the Sukhoy general director, Mikhail Pogosyan, told journalists what the company will come with to Farnborough and what primary tasks stand before the holding company right now.

This year Sukhoy will offer spectators civil aviation equipment- a mock-up of the cabin for the family of Russian Regional Jet airplanes will be demonstrated for the first time at Farnborough. The family will consist of six versions of airplanes, they all will respond to modern worldwide standards which will allow delivery of them not only on the internal market, but also for export. The prospective sales volume of the RRJ family of airplanes right now is estimate at more than 12 billion dollars. The total forecast demand will be nearly 800 aircraft over 20 years, and the cost will be 10 - 15 percent lower than foreign similar types.

At the same time, one of Sukhoy's main tasks is the further strengthening of positions in the military aviation equipment market, in particular, owing to the creation of new products and upgrade of already-existing airplanes and which have made a good showing of themselves. The company is developing the modern Su-32 fighter-bomber, which will be called upon to destroy ground and aerial targets, in accordance with a Russian Ministry of Defense order. This airplane also is supposed to perform aerial reconnaissance and patrol the coasts in any weather conditions. At the present moment, a pre-production batch of eight aircraft has been built and state flight tests have begun, which will end in 2005.

Work also is underway on the upgrade of aircraft equipment which in the inventory of our army. Thus, a program is being executed on behalf of the defense ministry for the creation of an upgraded Su-24M2 tactical bomber. It is being done for raising the precision performance of the navigational complex and modes of use of the airborne weapons systems. The heart of the avionics will be replaced in full on the Su-24M2 airplanes, including the computer system, the navigational system, and the cockpit crew information display system. The upgrade program for the Su-27 series of airplanes, the best airplanes in their class, is aimed at the creation of an airplane with new aerodynamics, avionics and control system characteristics.

Work on new generation airplanes also is underway actively. AKhK Sukhoy intends as early as this year to present the concept design of the fifth generation fighter to Russia's defense ministry. "Development of the fifth generation aircraft complex is going according to the timetable," Mikhail Pogosyan noted. In his opinion, now "it is necessary to transition from general discussion to cooperation with possible manufacturers of components for the new aerial complex." The fifth generation fighter is a multirole aircraft for the resolution of missions of a tactical nature, it can effectively destroy aerial, ground and surface small-size moving targets in any weather conditions of day and night, and also in conditions of active enemy countermeasures with the use of precision weapons. The foreign spectators will be able to see the results of the aircraft designers' work with the own eyes. In August of this year, the whole lineup of domestic airplane construction will be demonstrated within the framework of the MAKS-2004 aviation show in the Moscow suburb of Zhukovskiy, and the SU-30MK will take part in demonstration flights.

As Mikhail Pogosyan thinks, the condition of the Russian military aviation industry is much more positive on the whole that 10 years ago, in the recession period. This is connected with several factors, in particular, with the direction of attention to arms export which has brought results. Another positive trend is the steady growth of orders within the framework of the state arms program on the part of the Ministry of Defense. Thanks to this, the quantity of orders has increased for the upgrade of aircraft equipment, and in the near future, after specification of the arms program, this equipment will be purchased for the needs of the Russian armed forces.

Source: 14.07.04, Agenstvo Biznes Novosti

[Indian1973]

Vympel what is the current known status of new versions of the R-73 and ramjet R-77 ?
the R-73 is kinda long in tooth compared to the new gen designs flooding the market and needs a new model and ramjet R-77 is obviously necessary to match the Meteor and improve on the original R-77 shortcomings.

[Vympel]

Vympel what is the current known status of new versions of the R-73 and ramjet R-77 ?
the R-73 is kinda long in tooth compared to the new gen designs flooding the market and needs a new model and ramjet R-77 is obviously necessary to match the Meteor and improve on the original R-77 shortcomings.

Shouldn't this be in the missile forum ? :)

The latest R-73M2 (which is in service since 1996) isn't long in the tooth, capability wise; though it could use an imaging infrared seeker, it seems quite deadly. Anyway, Jane's ALW refers to an improved R-73 variant, with speculation as to its designation (including R-74, which has been used as the rear-fire version designation by some) but its features are "unclear"- possibilities include:

- an improved R-73 with gimbal-mounted motor nozzle assembly, which is in development by Vympel (improving maneuverability and range). More expensive.
- A cheaper solution possibly known as R-74 with "improved seeker" and "improved TVC" (but with vanes as on the R-73 rather than the above gimbal-mount)
- the aforementioned rear-fire version

* presumably the more expensive one would also have the improved seeker, I assume.

Vympel's K-30 is of course in the future too. As to RVV-AE-PD aka R-77M-PD, no new news. . These new missiles will probably coincide roughly with the appearance of the PAK FA in solid form.

[Srbin]

Has sukhoi or anyone else released a drawing of the potential PAK-FA? I mean we don't know how this thing will look like at all
1)All we know it will be a twin engined heavy fighter to replace Mig-29 and Su-27
2)We don't know what kind of configuration will it be, where it's intakes are going to be placed, what type of wing it will have or anything.

[GDL]

Has sukhoi or anyone else released a drawing of the potential PAK-FA? I mean we don't know how this thing will look like at all
1)All we know it will be a twin engined heavy fighter to replace Mig-29 and Su-27
2)We don't know what kind of configuration will it be, where it's intakes are going to be placed, what type of wing it will have or anything.

I suspect we are going to know pretty soon Srbin.

In August of this year, the whole lineup of domestic airplane construction will be demonstrated within the framework of the MAKS-2004 aviation show in the Moscow suburb of Zhukovskiy

Looks like it might be next month when we see a concept model of it. Let's hope so! Can't wait.

[Vympel]

Today's News

Concept Design for Fifth Generation Fighter to Be Given to Customer at End of this Year

The fifth generation fighter concept design, as is provided for by the timetable, will be given to the customer, Russia's defense ministry, at the end of this year, the general director of the Sukhoy company, Mikhail Pogosyan, announced at a press conference at the Farnborough-2004 salon.

According to him, further periods for work on the program will be determined by the customer after examination of the results of the concept stage of the design. Moreover, further periods for realization of the program two a great degree will depend on how preparation of the state arms program for the period 2006?2015 goes, which will specify the priorities of the state defense order for the coming 10 years, including the fifth generation fighter.

Touching on the realization of the Sukhoy company's military programs as a whole, M. Pogosyan noted the program for upgrade of Su-30 airplanes "which has not been completed in its development, but it is growing steadily." A second trend, which is supposed to provide maintenance of Sukhoy's position in the marketplace in the period from 2006 and until the appearance of the fifth generation airplane is the Su-35 program. This program is supposed to integrate to a significant degree those technologies which are being perfected in the process of work on the fifth generation fighter.

One more trend, according to M. Pogosyan, is work on guaranteeing the requirements of the Russian Federation defense ministry. This, firstly, is the upgrade of operational Su-27, Su-24 and Su-25 airplanes in the Russian air force inventory. The first deliveries of upgraded aircraft for the Russian Federation air force began last year. The second priority program being realized in the interests of the ministry of defense is the Su-32 program. This is a strike complex which is intended for the resolution of a whole spectrum of missions connected with the destruction of ground and surface targets and also aerial combat.

As M. Pogosyan noted, the Sukhoy company is devoting serious attention also to the development of unmanned aerial vehicles.

"Such a broad range of directions of operations on the military theme are connected with the company's diversification strategy which is directed to a maximum degree at meeting market demands and reacting flexibly to those changes that occur in the worldwide marketplace for military aviation equipment," M. Pogosyan concluded.

Source: 22.07.04, ARMS-TASS

[Vympel]

Generations not Changing

The appearance of the new combat airplane isn't expected until 2012

Yesterday, the head of the Sukhoy Aviation Holding Company, Mikhail Pogosyan, and the air force commander-in-chief, General of the Army Vladimir Mikhaylov, almost simultaneously acknowledged that there will not be a revolution is military aircraft construction in the near future. Russian aces will receive the long-awaited fifth generation combat airplane not earlier than 2012. Only the aircraft's concept design will be presented to the customer- the Russian Federation defense ministry- at the end of this year. The Su-35 airplane will fill the eight-year time interval, which, according to Mikhail Pogosyan's assurance, will be "an intermediate airplane between the utmost as of today in the family of Sukhoy Su-30 and the fifth generation airplane."

Nevertheless, it will be difficult to call the Su-35 brand-new: the fighter, per se, will be a hodgepodge of all the best which has been produced by the Sukhoy OKB aircraft designers. In particular, they will take the airframe from the Su-27, and the different experiences of the Su-24M and Su-30 airplanes will be used. As regards the airframe, as Mikhail Pogosyan explained, the use of the airframe from the Su-27 "will permit essentially shortening the time for the development of a new aircraft, since tests of the airframe will not have to be performed. The new aircraft is supposed to appear as early as 2006. OKB adviser, Marshal of Aviation Evgeniy Shaposhnikov, also supported Sukhoy's position on the upgrade while answering a Russkiy Kur'er question. "We have achieved such a technological level that it isn't suitable to expect a revolution a revolution in aircraft construction. The Su-30 has even outpaced the fifth generation in aerodynamic qualities," the ex aide to Russia's president for space and aviation assured. "But it is worth putting work on the avionics over combat characteristics. The new generation airplane is not a 30-50 percent improvement of qualitative performance, but by 2- 3 times. But this can be achieved today only by evolutionary, and not by a revolutionary means." "We will be able to preserve our leading positions in the aviation marketplace in the 2006 - 2012 interval with the Su-35 airplane and also owing to the upgrade of the Su-30," Mikhail Pogosyan added.

Nevertheless, these are the plans. For the time being the air force needs to be involved with more mundane affairs. In particular, to analyze the results of the two recent catastrophes: of the Mi-8 helicopter and of the Tu-22M bomber. As air force CinC, General of the Army Vladimir Mikhaylov, explained to us, the human factor led to both tragedies. "The flight controllers are to blame for the loss of the helicopter. On that day the temperature was zero at an altitude of 3,000 meters. It was madness to climb the airplane ((sic)) even higher. However, the flight controller gave the crew the order to take an altitude of 3,300 meters. In the Tu-22M crew tragedy, the main reason is technical, a generator malfunctioned. But there is not one generator on the airplane, but four. The crew, in view of little flying practice, was unable to enable the three other generators correctly. Moreover, the generator had been inoperative for 43 minutes before the catastrophe, however, the airmen did not report about this malfunction," Vladimir Mikhaylov said.

As regards the fifth generation airplane, the air force CinC confirmed to Russkiy Kur'er the words of the Sukhoy manager. "We expect the new airplane by 2012," the general reported. "But it is supposed to be a really new airplane, and not an upgrade of an old aircraft."

Source: 29.07.04, Russkiy Kur'er

"Su-35" is obviously a reference to the new Su-37 being built.

[aerospacetech]

The latest Sukhoi is the Su-35BM with AL-41F1 engines and advanced avionics including either Phazotron's Sokol or NIIP's new Irbis radars.

Irbis is a rotating passive phased array, a newer generation than Bars but building on work done on that radar.

Irbis is expected to be ready around 2006/7 so I guess this is the timeframe for the Su-35BM. The AL-41F1 program should be well advanced by then as well.

[Srbin]

Su-35BM? Any info on it?

[aerospacetech]

Well I think "its got the AL-41F1 engine and improved avionics" pretty much qualifies as information?

There was no mention of airframe changes. The "AL-41F1" is a bit of cheat- its a staged development of the AL-31 incorporating some AL-41F technology. Makes a lot more sense than trying to shoehorn in the real AL-41F.

[Vympel]

The latest Sukhoi is the Su-35BM with AL-41F1 engines and advanced avionics including either Phazotron's Sokol or NIIP's new Irbis radars.

Irbis is a rotating passive phased array, a newer generation than Bars but building on work done on that radar.

Irbis is expected to be ready around 2006/7 so I guess this is the timeframe for the Su-35BM. The AL-41F1 program should be well advanced by then as well.

Su-35BM eh? Where'd you get this new and interesting informaiton? I presupposed it would be equipped with AL-41F1 engines, but I hadn't heard of a new radar from NIIP yet. What does "rotating passive phased array" mean, exactly?

Of course, the AL-41F1 (or a variant thereof) will also power the PAK FA (unless a miracle happens and the MFI gets chosen, in which case they'll need the original AL-41F).

[aerospacetech]

Rotating passive phased array means, like N011M Bars, that the phased array is not fixed but steerable. Bars is steerable in azimuth only.

The Su-35BM is featured in Air & Cosmos Number 1935 - 7 May 2004. I bet PiBu can tell us more ;)

[fft]

If this 'steeribility' implies moving the antenna, does'nt then it defeats the whole purpose of phase-array.

Any idea about the weight and signal processing capability of this new radar.

[Jai]

fft, from what I have read, in the case of electronically scanned antennas the maximum angle of scanning is reduced as compared to antennas which are purely mechanically scanned. That is, that the overall volume of space which can be scanned using purely electronic scanning is lesser than what is achievable through mechanically scanned antennas. A combined mechanical + electronic scanning mechanism combines best of both worlds, that is reduced scanning times + higher agility ( from electronic scanning ) and large volume of scanned space ( from mechanical scanning) .

[fft]

Jai your answers seems to be logical, though I suspect this 'reduction in angle of scanning' problems only happens to passive phase (because of difficulty in shaping beam with passive components). I guess Thales also has a few passive phase-array radars, are they also 'hybrid' i.e. electrical+mechanical like BARS.

[over G]

Always the russians with their unexistent pakfa!!!!, i think that they will wait until the service confirmation of the f22 (if it get an strong confirmation), but im impressed by their engineers,finally they put an AL41 into falnkers!!! my supossition of an "stealth 5th generation flanker" maybe is getting real??????

[aerospacetech]

All phased array radars suffer from a degredation in performance when scanning at extreme angles. The Bars radar is the worst in this respect- it steers only +-40 degrees electronically, and one can argue that the mechanical scan is a fix for this. The normal figure for a phased array (i.e. RBE-2) is +-60 degrees, while the best anyone has ever quoted is +-70 degrees (Phazotron Zhuk-MSFE). The Zhuk mechanically scanned radars have +-90degrees in azimuth, which is a lot bigger than even the best phased array can manage.

The only downside to combined mechanical/electronic scanning is the additional weight. You don't lose anything- your phased array can still operate as normal, you just gain the ability to extend the scanning limits beyond what is possible with a fixed array.

[GDL]

Yet another Su-35 incarnation? Is this Su-35BM going to be a tech demo platform, or are they still hoping to sell the Su-35 as opposed to the Su-30?

[SOC]

I think they still hope to get the Su-35XX into RusAF service...and is there any more info on putting an AL-41 into the Su-34?

[Vympel]

Yet another Su-35 incarnation? Is this Su-35BM going to be a tech demo platform, or are they still hoping to sell the Su-35 as opposed to the Su-30?

Its going to be the final Flanker to tide over the market until the PAK FA is ready.

The RuAF on the other hand will just stick to upgrading it's Su-27 feet until that time.

[ogami musashi]

Small aerodynamics changes are made especially the cancelation of canards, and smaller fins and foward fuselage.
Larger intakes.


We'll wait to see it fly as sukhoi is the specialist for virtual planes.

[Jai]

AL-41 on the MFI.

[aerospacetech]

Note that the AL-41F1 isn't actually directly related to the AL-41F. Its a program to add some technologies to the AL-31F from the AL-41F program, to gradually increase performance of the AL-31F.

[lordofjedi]

If AL-41F is already there in MFI, then what would be the problem in installing it in Su-35 or for that matter Su-30s. I don't understand.

Why are these engines not available for the existing fighters as an option? - Cost? Problems in production? Not fully tested? Or is it something else...

Thanks.

[ogami musashi]

probably some of each.

First the engines requires big intakes, are bigger than AL-31F, then the motor had some problems with hot parts, and the costs are too high.

[Trident]

I'd love to see them in the production PAK-FA though, they're some seriously impressive brutes. Depending on the weight of the airframe they would also give the aircraft a spectacular T/W-ratio.

[GDL]

The problems (and cost probably) with simply fitting the AL-41 to the Su-35 is probably why they are adapting the AL-41 tech with a hybrid AL-31 engine, i.e. the AL-41F1 as it appears to be known.

[Vympel]

The AL-41F is too big for Su-27 class engine bays, IIRC.

[GDL]

Yesterday, the head of the Sukhoy Aviation Holding Company, Mikhail Pogosyan, and the air force commander-in-chief, General of the Army Vladimir Mikhaylov, almost simultaneously acknowledged that there will not be a revolution is military aircraft construction in the near future. Russian aces will receive the long-awaited fifth generation combat airplane not earlier than 2012.

I recall earlier reports, and I mean a couple of years ago now, that stated PAK-FA would be up and running by 2010, as in flying. Now it is 2012? Starting to sound like American optimism. :p

[SOC]

A Western equivalent in every sense of the word :D

[Jai]

Sukhoi Is the Star of a New Action Flick (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2004/08/12/002.html)


ZHUKOVSKY AIRFIELD, Moscow Region -- Standing on the tarmac of an idle airfield outside Moscow, a disillusioned ex-CIA agent orders a Russian Air Force pilot to attack an unidentified target with his stealth Sukhoi fighter.

The $10 million budget for the movie, with the working title "Su-XX," is being bankrolled by Sukhoi and several Russian commercial banks. "Su-XX" will premiere in Russian theaters on May 9, 2005, to coincide with the 60th anniversary of the Soviet Union's victory over Nazi Germany.

Fans of the Sukhoi will notice fiction in the film's depiction of the jet. The stealth capabilities assigned to the plane will only be a reality when Sukhoi rolls out its fifth-generation fighter in 2010. Two planes were used on the film set, an Su-27UB and an Su-35.

"Su-XX" director Vasily Chiginsky promised more eye-dazzling action than audiences are used to seeing in Russian films.

"There will be a lot of computer graphics, but there will be a lot of shooting in the air as well when the plane performs stunts," Chiginsky said.

Still, Kapanets, who previously produced the 2002 film "Red Serpent," starring Roy Scheider, is confident that "Su-XX" will be a hit.

"We will rip the Russian box office, and we will show it in every country where people have TV sets," he said.

[GDL]

Sounds like a cool film.. Could be some interesting shots and video of the FLANKERs.

[Vympel]

More news:

Concept Design of Fifth Generation Airplane Presented to Russia's Air Force

The Sukhoy company has completed work on the concept design of the fifth generation combat airplane and presented it to the customer , the Russian air force, the company's general director, Mikhail Pogosyan, has reported. According to him, the customer will examine the concept design before year's end. After this a decision will be adopted on continuation of work on the program.

Source: 03.11.04, Gazeta.RU

[bring_it_on]

interesting that the customer mentioned over here was only the russian air force. So what is the nature of the indian envolvement and wouldnt it be appropriate for them to also approve of the concept design before the final selection is made..and what according to you will be a reasonable timeframe during which we can see the pak fa flying around in service.

[SOC]

If they approve the design relatively soon, a demonstrator could be flying in late 05 or early 06 (converted from an Su-47), with an actual prototype in 2008, and a production model in 2010 or 2011. I'd expect service entry, at the earliest, around 2015. That is probably the absolute quickest they could get everything going, provided there aren't many problems to solve, and the money is available.

[Nitin_V]

Thats way too optimistic SOC, many of the most critical subsystems are yet to be developed- AESA for eg. Or demonstrated- stealth measures for one. The Su work on the 27 may be a starting step though.

[bring_it_on]

just looking at the development of the f/a-22 i feel that the avionics will take quite a bit of time to develop..but my estimates were somewhere in the 2015 region as well that is without any technical or financial hickups..

[SOC]

Avionics could be adapted from the work done on the MFI, and Phazotron/NIIP/et. al. are always coming up with something new anyway. Besides, they can get a bird in the air to begin flight testing even if the fire control system isn't fully ready yet. Again, as I said, 2015 for the first jet to be accepted into the RusAF is the ABSOLUTE quickest I see it getting done. 2020-2025 is more likely, but 2015 is not outside the realm of possibility if they become supremely motivated (and find the money).

[RajKhalsa]

Hi all

What is this a/c in the attached image?

Is it simply 'fan art' or a possible design?

[matt]

interesting that the customer mentioned over here was only the russian air force. So what is the nature of the indian envolvement and wouldnt it be appropriate for them to also approve of the concept design before the final selection is made..and what according to you will be a reasonable timeframe during which we can see the pak fa flying around in service.


I have not heard anything from GOI saying for sure it has backed and signed a contract to develope or be in some way associated with the PAK-FA. nor has the Cheif of the airforce mentioned the aircraft. *not to my knowledge anyways.

[Nitin_V]

The GOI has mentioned it in the past. The process was said to involve the IAF drawing up their requirements and seeing what the Russians could do with it.
Given the amount of funding required- the GOI will be cautious. But its essential that the IAF be involved. This is the only viable fifth gen project "out there" apart from the F22. Both the EF 2000 and the Rafale are stuck in "survival today" mode.
However, the LO Rafale with decent update could be a decent comparator to the F-35.
Anyways, the present approach of the IAF is essential if it were to ever integrate a fifth gen a/c. IE build up a complete systems AF with data networking and the works.

[Nitin_V]

Some old news.

Russia to speed up delivery of military hardware
(Times of India, 08 February 2002)

Even as working groups of the Indo-Russian commission on military technical cooperation discussed different defence deals, sources said Moscow has assured New Delhi that it will speed up the delivery of the fourth-generation Sukhoi-30MKI fighters and T-90S main-battle tanks. Sources said India should receive the first batch of four multi-role SU-30MKI jets from Moscow by June. "Before this year ends, the IAF will have 10 Su-30MKIs in its inventory. The two sides are also considering the initial blueprint for the joint production of a fifth-generation combat aircraft," said one. The Su-30MKI air-superiority fighter, capable of undertaking both strike and air defence missions, is expected to form the IAF backbone for the next two decades, with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. also subsequently taking up indigenous licensed production of the jets.

While the first lot of the T-90S tanks, equipped with night-fighting capabilities and protected by explosive reactive armour, has already arrived in India, New Delhi wants the delivery schedule to be further speeded up. Apart from the proposed leasing of the Tu-22 long-range strategic bombers and nuclear submarines, the two countries are also engaged in hard bargaining over the sale of aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, as also the supply of MiG-29K fighters and Kamov anti-submarine helicopters to arm the carrier, in a package deal.

The negotiations for the 44,570-tonne Admiral Gorshkov have attracted some criticism due to the sharp escalation in its high retrofitting costs. Reports indicate Russia is asking for $747 million for the refit job on the carrier, while India's top offer is said to be $650 million. India and Russia will sign a wide-ranging defence protocol on February 8th. The two sides will go in for more programs to jointly develop and produce a new generation of weapon systems. They are also in the process of finalising deals for three Amur 1650 Class submarines, Smerch multi-barrel rocket systems and Mi-17 helicopters, among others.

[Nitin_V]

HAL targets outsourcing
Expects Rs 4,000 cr order for LCA
by Sridhar K. Chari


HAL Chairman N.R. Mohanty


WITH the first flight of the first Nasik-produced Sukhoi-30 MKI expected by the end of this year, the LCA programme proceeding apace with 214 flights to date, export sales of the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) and Dornier DO 228, and with several upgrade programmes on hand, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) Chairman N.R. Mohanty feels that HAL’s credibility with the Indian Air Force (IAF) and other global aero-companies is at an all-time high. Excerpts from an interview:

Q: What is HAL doing to mitigate the attrition level of the MiG 21?

Quite a lot now. As you know, the IAF flies three variants, the FL, the M, and the Bis. The COFAA (Committee on Fighter Aircraft Accidents) report had indicated that 40 per cent of such accidents were due to technical defects, 40 per cent due to pilot error, and 20 per cent bird hits. We concentrated on the technical area. Wherever there has been any dilution of standards, I have been simply ruthless. Two senior managers were actually terminated. Even the IAF has tightened things quite a bit. And now of course, the Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) deal for the Hawk 100 has been signed.

Q: There were reports that HAL had left out some crucial calculations regarding the tooling in the Hawk deal, and consequently, India had to end up paying more?

A bogey, coming from the UK. Not true at all. Just like last year’s bogey about us using “spurious” spare parts on the MiGs.

Q: What is the status of cooperation with the Russians on building a new “fifth-generation fighter?”

The Russians are keen on doing something to rival the Joint Strike Fighter/F-22 Raptor. And we are someone whom they have identified as a primary partner. It involves a lot of money though. It is also a question of evolving something that suits both of us. They have already started making presentations to the Indian Air Force in this regard.

Q: The LCA prototypes/technology demonstrators have completed more than 200 flights. The IAF is looking at an interim purchase of a fleet of single-seat fighters. How is the programme holding up?

It is actually a pleasure to see the ADA (Aeronautical Development Agency) and HAL teams working as one towards making the LCA a success. Earlier team-work problems were largely due to personality clashes. It is a very homogenous effort now. 214 flights have been completed, and Prototype Vehicle -2 (PV2) should take off soon. We are just waiting for the actuators (devices which move the control surfaces) from Moog, which should come shortly. Work on the Limited Series Production of eight aircraft has already begun. And there is the expectation of a Rs 4000 crore order for 40 LCA, including eight trainer versions. As for the interim purchase, various options are currently being considered. Nothing has been decided.

Q: How do you think Indian aviation is positioned to take advantage of the high precision, stand-off range and real time, “sensor-to-shooter-to-commander” links that are revolutionising military technology?

The key is to develop a good synergy between DRDO labs, academic institutions, and industry, both public sector and private. We will not be able to take on everything and do it ourselves. We have to explore co-productions, joint ventures, as we are already doing. The ancillary private industry, especially in electronics is coming up very well. We have outsourcing capacity, and as on March 31, we have seen more than 862 firms with orders worth Rs 98 crore just for last year - and that is without material cost included. In the current year, we have targeted Rs 200 crore of outsourcing.

Q: The Saras 14-seater Light Transport Aircraft (LTA) being developed by the National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL), with HAL involvement, appears to be getting delayed. Can you give us an update? And is there a market niche for such an aircraft?

High speed taxi trials are already going on (at the HAL airport). We should see the first flight by the end of May. And there is definitely a market for the aircraft. But I would like to see more support for it from our civil aviation industry. More than Rs 70 crore is coming from CSIR (Council for Scientific and Industrial Research), and we have pitched in with quite a bit, for the wings, the landing gear, and three other work packages which HAL is responsible for. More support will make a big difference to the programme.

Q: There is a plan for a replacement for the HPT-32 basic flight trainer for the IAF…

Yes, the project proposal has been finalised, and it should get approved soon. The HPT-32 is a piston-engined trainer, and what we are planning is a turbo-prop, with tandem seating. The IAF training command (headquartered in Bangalore) has already approved it, and we should see clearance from Air Headquarters soon.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040517/edit.htm

[matt]

The two sides are also considering the initial blueprint for the joint production of a fifth-generation combat aircraft," said one.


Nitin thanks for this post but as you your self have highlighted it does not confirm anything it says "considering" what has happened after that is another story. The only people who i have heard say that India will get the PAK-FA are the enthusiasts and sometimes Indian media, but i have not heard India being mentioned with regards to the PAK-FA from Russia media or by Russian company i have not heard them mention the IAF when talking of customers for the PAK-FA.

[matt]

Q: What is the status of cooperation with the Russians on building a new “fifth-generation fighter?”

The Russians are keen on doing something to rival the Joint Strike Fighter/F-22 Raptor. And we are someone whom they have identified as a primary partner. It involves a lot of money though. It is also a question of evolving something that suits both of us. They have already started making presentations to the Indian Air Force in this regard.



Again nothing confirming India has signed any contracts or MOU's. Here it is still saying, like the countless other reports, that the Russians are Interested in a partner and have made "presentations". Making presentations is not the same as signing a contract to produce/buy or be a part of something.

The procurement procedure for the IAF is hazardous, and thanks to things like Tehlka etc, I doubt anyone would be happy to sign soo much money away lest they be accused of corruption or taking back handers.

[Nitin_V]

So? Did anyone make a claim that any deal had been signed? :rolleyes:

If you did some legwork of your own, you'd know that at Asian Aerospace 2004 Mohanty quite categorically claimed that a deal was yetto be signed and could take place only once the technicalities had been worked out.

What Mohanty does say however is also pretty important. He notes that HAL has been identified as a primary partner: " And we are someone whom they have identified as a primary partner."

So dont put words into my mouth or tilt at windmills.

And as regards Tehelka- your point being? Every nation has issues of corruption when it comes to arms transfers. That did not stop DRDO from going ahead with LCA susbsystem development with Israel. Nor did it stop the IAF from going ahead with the MKI. Nor did it stop India from committing funds to the Brahmos.

If the GOI thinks there is a need, funds will be committed. And the need will come once the IAF draws up its ASR's and correlates them with what Russia has, ie Sukhoi has on offer. As simple as that.

[Nitin_V]

Nitin thanks for this post but as you your self have highlighted it does not confirm anything it says "considering" what has happened after that is another story. The only people who i have heard say that India will get the PAK-FA are the enthusiasts and sometimes Indian media, but i have not heard India being mentioned with regards to the PAK-FA from Russia media or by Russian company i have not heard them mention the IAF when talking of customers for the PAK-FA.

You have to be kidding me. The ones harping most on the PAK FA for India are the Russians themselves.

http://english.pravda.ru/world/2001/11/06/20252.html

Russia And India To Develop Fifth Generation War Plane

Russia and India are working on a project to design a new fifth generation combat aircraft, a RIA Novosti correspondent quoted Russia's Deputy Prime Minister Ilya Klebanov as saying on Tuesday.
According to Mr. Klebanov, at the moment the work to prepare this project is underway in India.
Most probably, details of the project will be released to experts in the first quarter of 2002. "Russia will present the project and India's participation in it," Mr. Klebanov stressed. He added that a tender would be held to determine the contractor to build the plane. Russian corporations Sukhoi and MiG might participate in the tender.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_8-2-2003_pg4_12

Region: Russia, India to make fifth generation jet

BANGALORE: Buoyed by the success of the Sukhoi deal and the joint development of the ‘Brahmos’ cruise missile, Russia is looking to India for joint design and development of a fifth generation fighter aircraft.

The proposed aircraft, which would be a successor to Sukhoi, as a long-term perspective programme could improve further the strategic partnership between the two countries, Russian Aerospace Agency General Director, Yuri N Koptev, told newsmen here today. Thereby, it could offer cost-effective fighter aircraft to third countries, he added.

The Sukhoi Design Bureau as a developer of the aircraft and Irkut Aviation Industries Association as a producer had gained unique experience in the development of `Sukhoi MKI’ and this could be used in further mutual projects like the creation of new aircraft, Victor M Komardin, Deputy Director General of Rosoboronexport, Federal State Unitary Enterprise of Russia, who was also present, said.

Describing the Sukhoi venture as a “super project” in which more than 600 Russian subcontractors and almost all the resources of the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited were involved, Koptev said that Russia was keen on extending its strategic relation and entry of the European Union into joint programmes with India in the Defence sector would not alter the situation.


http://english.people.com.cn/english/200106/05/eng20010605_71779.html
Russia, India Ready to Sign Package of Military Contracts
Russia and India are ready to sign a package of contracts on arms sales and military-technical cooperation, and the first batch will be signed on June 6, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Ilya Klebanov announced Monday.

The two countries are entering a new stage of military cooperation by jointly designing and producing military hardware, especially aircraft, ships and submarines, said Klebanov, who co- chaired a session of the Russian-Indian intergovernmental commission on military-technical cooperation with his visiting Indian counterpart Jaswant Singh.

According to Klebanov, who is in charge of the military- industrial complex, Russia and India will jointly design a general- purpose military-transport plane, and the Ilyushin firm will be a Russian participant in the project.

"We are now completing the documents needed for starting its production," Klebanov said, noting the plane "is not going to be another AN-70, but an absolutely different plane."

Klebanov said Russia and India are also holding talks on the creation of warplanes of the fifth generation.

A contract on supplying Russia's Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier to India is also to be signed in September to October this year, followed by the sale of 60 MiG 29K deck combat planes and the construction of coastal infrastructure, Klebanov said.

Singh said that Russia and India have signed contracts worth of 10 billion U.S. dollars in the sphere of military-technical cooperation.

The recently signed large contracts on supplying India with Su- 30MKI jets and T-90 tanks are very important for India, said the minister, urging thorough implementation of those contracts.

Singh, who is also India's foreign minister, discussed bilateral relations with Russian Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov on the same day in the context of preparations for a visit by Indian Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee scheduled for November. They also exchanged views on strategic stability and the Southern Asian situation.

The ministers emphasized "the importance of close cooperation between the two countries in the struggle against such global challenges such as international terrorism and religious extremism, " said a Foreign Ministry release.

Singh arrived here Sunday evening for a three-day official visit amid the stepping up cooperation between Moscow and New Delhi in military spheres.


but i have not heard India being mentioned with regards to the PAK-FA from Russia media or by Russian company i have not heard them mention the IAF when talking of customers for the PAK-FA.

:rolleyes: :p

[Tiger_01]

Maybe comparing between India and China shows the differences. Not for flaming but both nation have the same background yet the present is much different.

[Nitin_V]

Maybe comparing between India and China shows the differences. Not for flaming but both nation have the same background yet the present is much different.

:rolleyes: whatever! Both nations are in the same boat- they have their own programs and are yet dependent upon Mother Russia for Su's.

[Tiger_01]

Yet one copies and improves everything. And has exported large quantaties.

[Nitin_V]

So in your words, the Chinese are copiers?:rolleyes:

[Tiger_01]

In my word everyone copies and improves. And there is nothing wrong with that. I say the same about other nations. First you buy expensive goodies. Then you try to improve inhouse maintenance, Then you move on local assembling. Then parts produces inhouse. Then in a project with other nations. And finally fully inhouse project. It would be incorrect to assume that new fighterjets come as a fully new inhouse idea... ;)

[Nitin_V]

IOW you are barking up a tree and shooting off on a tangent wrt the original thread. Good work there!

[Tiger_01]

IOW you are barking up a tree and shooting off on a tangent wrt the original thread. Good work there!
Personal BS and oneliner... Now you are askin questions. I answer them and then you compare me with dog? Inferiority rules.

[matt]

Waste of time.

[SOC]

Hi all

What is this a/c in the attached image?

Is it simply 'fan art' or a possible design?

That one has nothing to do with the PAK-FA (it's too small and single-engined), but I do seem to remember it coming from a Sukhoi LFS project from a few years ago? Anyone else?

[aerospacetech]

Yeah, its an LFS design from Sukhoi.

[Nitin_V]

Personal BS and oneliner... Now you are askin questions. I answer them and then you compare me with dog? Inferiority rules.

LOL!! :D
Dude "barking up a tree" is an expression. That does not mean you are a doggie!
Personal BS indeed. :rolleyes:

[over G]

Interesting Rajskhalsa,

The design is basicaly good for general 5 generation requierements, but im worried by the vertical fins that although are good for stealth that design could give problems in the planes agility, also i cannot see the intakes-lower fuselage shape, i dont trust in single engine for supercruise (for me is better the use of 2 relative low powered engines) but the overall aspect is good, theris not still any draw of the pakfa?????

[Blackcat]

Nitin,
Thats way too optimistic SOC, many of the most critical subsystems are yet to be developed- AESA for eg. Or demonstrated- stealth measures for one. The Su work on the 27 may be a starting step though.
Abt the flght test, I'd go along Seans line .....as the first testing of parameters wud be don on S-37 or say as I mostly believe a 'conventional' winged S-37 is gonna be the base of PAK-FA ....

and abt the AESA stuffs ..... the Russians have been working on it for some time now and wud have been speeded up if Indian joined in with financial aids, but before that the Unkil and Isrelis dashed in and pulled away from any thing related to a joint developement of an A-50 with AESA and other stuffs .....

Russian AESA work .... hope the IN's MiG-29s get these, possible?

--------------------------------------------------------
Bench Tests of First Aircraft Radar with Active Phased Array Antenna Start in 2004

The Fazotron-NIIR Corporation plans to start bench tests in 2004 of the first aircraft radar with an active phased array antenna (BRLS with AFAR), the general director and general designer of the corporation, Anatoliy Kanashchenkov, reported to Interfax-AVN on Thursday ((8 May 2003)).

“As early as the second quarter 2003, the first of several elements for the active phased array antenna should be manufactured,” A. Kanashchenkov said.

According to him, new principles based on solid-state technology are being used in the BRLS with AFAR being developed by the corporation.

“As of today, we already have prospective power amplifier and approximately half the solid-state integrated analogue circuits," said A. Kanashchenkov.

He reported that the enterprise is participating in a competition for the creation of the aircraft radar for the future Russian fifth generation fighter.

“The document about the conclusion of the competition for the creation of the aircraft radar for the future Russian fighter still has not been signed. But independent of the results of the competition, Fazotron-NIIR will continue work on the development of a future BRLS with AFAR - such work has been underway at the enterprise over the last 7 years," A. Kanashchenkov said.

Answering an Interfax-AVN question, he reported that “the future BRLS with AFAR will be more expensive than a BRLS with a passive phased array antenna. At the same time, A. Kanashchenkov noted that the improvement of the technology for manufacturing a BRLS with AFAR over time will allow appreciably reducing expenses and lead to a lowering of the price for the complex.

“As early as after the manufacture and tests of the first 5 - 10 BRLS with AFAR the technology of their assembly will be improved and the cost lowered significantly," A. Kanashchenkov said.

Source: 08.05.03, Interfax-AVN

[Blackcat]

and another one, both of these reports Vympel had posted earlier
----------------------------------
Fazotron-NIIR Corporation Creating Aircraft Radar for Fifth Generation MiG Fighter

The Fazotron-NIIR corporation will continue work on the creation of an aircraft radar (BRLS) for a future fifth generation fighter in accordance with an agreement with the Russian Airplane Building Corporation (RSK) MiG, the general director and general designer of the Fazotron-NIIR corporation, Anatoliy Kanashchenkov, reported to Interfax-AVN on Wednesday.

“Fazotron-NIIR has signed an agreement with RSK MiG on the development of a radar for a future fifth generation fighters created at RSK MiG on its own initiative," A. Kanashchenkov said.

According to him, RSK MiG had proposed to the Fazotron-NIIR corporation the development of a BRLS for the fifth generation fighter being created. “The offer was accepted and this summer an agreement was signed by four organizations, including Fazotron-NIIR, RSK MiG and also engine-building firms,” A. Kanashchenkov said.

He recalled that the MiG corporation had adopted a decision in principle to continue work on future fighter on its own initiative.

In A. Kanashchenkov’s opinion, that developer who creates the best active phased array radar (AFAR) will win the competition for the fifth generation fighter in actual fact.

“The Fazotron-NIIR corporation has adopted a decision to continue scientific research and experimental design work on the creation of a new BRLS with an AFAR with subsequent alternative testing of it and a real demonstration of its capabilities,” A. Kanashchenkov said.

In his opinion, Fazotron-NIIR is the most advanced company in the area of future fighter avionics complexes.

“Over a 5 year period, Fazotron-NIIR has executed scientific research and experimental design work in accordance with a state defense order to the stage of the detail design and has defended it. Other developmental firms are at the preliminary design stage," said A. Kanashchenkov.

According to A. Kanashchenkov, not only will Fazotron-NIIR be working with RSK MiG in the creation of the fifth generation BRLS, but also with the Sukhoy OKB. According to him, it is planned to make flight tests of the future radar on Sukhoy OKB airplanes.

In 2002, AVPK Sukhoy was determined as the chief executor of work on the fifth generation airplane.

The Tekhnokompleks Scientific and Production Center, Ramenskoye Instrument Building Design Bureau, the Instrument Building Scientific Research Institute (Zhukovskiy), the Ural’sk Optical and Mechanical Plant (Yekaterinburg), the Polet firm (Nizhniy Novgorod) and The Central Scientific Research Radio Engineering Institute (Moscow) were pronounced winners in the competition held in the beginning of 2003 for the development of the avionics complex for the fifth generation airplane. NPO Saturn has been determined the lead executor for work on the engines for this airplane.

Source: 10.09.03, Interfax-AVN

[GarryB]

I recall earlier reports, and I mean a couple of years ago now, that stated PAK-FA would be up and running by 2010, as in flying. Now it is 2012? Starting to sound like American optimism.

Not optimism... editing. The estimate was probably based on the assumption there would be adequate funding and no major problems were encountered.


Thats way too optimistic SOC, many of the most critical subsystems are yet to be developed- AESA for eg. Or demonstrated- stealth measures for one. The Su work on the 27 may be a starting step though.

You will notice all the articles mentioning AESA are talking about the First Russian AESA in a Russian aircraft. They already have AESA radars.

[Nitin_V]

Gents,

Bench testing is merely the beginning of a long and arduous process. Dont expect an AESA for the PAK FA to come quick. I have no doubts that they can do it, but they will take some time.

Blackcat,

In MiG29's with AESA? Not anytime soon. IN MIg29's with mini Bars? Very probable.

Good news- NIIP and Phaza ARE both working on the next gen AESA for the PAK FA. Combined. Positive and encouraging - best use of resources and preventing duplication of effort. As with the Bars, it might be that India chips in as well- esp since it might be a consortium member.

Garry,

Which radars are those? All the ones I am aware of - even for the S300/400 for eg- are passive ones. Note I am referring to inservice mature systems, not developmental prototypes.

BTW, I did mean a/c AESA systems when I typed out my initial remark.

Cheers,
Nitin

[Blackcat]

well i don know if it will have but will hope the AESA makes it, but sure there would be atleast one before Gorshkov enters service..now it depends if IN wud like to change the spec with additional cost.

[Sundog]

Don't forget, Development of the ATF began around 1982, the prototypes first flew in 1990 and production of the F-22 is just beginning. I wouldn't bet on the PAK-FA being operational before 2015 at the earliest.

[Dandpatta]

Hi Buddies,
Forgive me for asking but what's the deal with having two tail planes instead of one? This seem to be a logical trend in the more recent aircrafts that we are seeing (beginning with F-15, Mig-25, F-14, Mig-29 & the more recent Sukhois..)
Valid inputs would help me :) thanks in advance.
Regds

[Coach]

Hello Dandpatta

For stealth-reasons everybody has to cant the vertical fins away from the right angle (in- or outward), what inevitably leads to 2 fins.

[RajKhalsa]

Thanks for the info on that pic guys

[SOC]

Don't forget, Development of the ATF began around 1982, the prototypes first flew in 1990 and production of the F-22 is just beginning. I wouldn't bet on the PAK-FA being operational before 2015 at the earliest.

Higher technology takes more time to perfect, especially when you have an army of idiots trying to deny you the funding for it that you need.

Plus, the ATF did change specifications a few times over the years before the prototypes were built, so the period from '82-'90 is a little bit misleading.

[over G]

Danpatta

tailplanes are for increase the control and stabilitation of the plane, it have diferent funtions, the new designs are more fast and needs more stabilitation in high aoa the tailplanes play an very important role, also theris influence in the shape of the plane and the "vacuum shadow" (high wing and rectangular fuselage have an special effect) in manoeuvres, so is not a good idea using an single tailplane in some designs, also are useful in high speed control, but there are other reasons that depends of the whole plane design.

[fft]

Whilst Russians technically - no doubt - are capabale of making an AESA radar. They don't have a well developed commercial semi-conductor industry (like taiwan or USA). This may result in per unit price of MMIC modules prohibitively high.

[bring_it_on]

i'm sure they can do it the question is how long and how far will they fall back as compared to western defence infrastructure.

[GarryB]

Which radars are those? All the ones I am aware of - even for the S300/400 for eg- are passive ones. Note I am referring to inservice mature systems, not developmental prototypes.

They would be very mature in service radars with the former Soviet Strategic Rocket forces space and air defence division.

BTW, I did mean a/c AESA systems when I typed out my initial remark.

Even the Russians admit they have no AESA antenna for aircraft yet.

[star49]

Russia is perfectly capable of develping operational PAK-FA by 2012 alone.(first flight 2008) with miniumum of $10B of development budget. The question is not about this $10B but to produce sufficient quantities that price per unit does not go beyond $100M per plane. Other wise high costs will kill the procurement both internally and exports.

[Nitin_V]

They would be very mature in service radars with the former Soviet Strategic Rocket forces space and air defence division.



Which ones? Cites, sources?

[Blackcat]

maybe the counter batter radars??......

after all its the Cobra which first employed the solid-state stuffs or say the AESA ....

and Russians do have a pretty decent counter-batter radras and for that klind of stuff u need fast stuffs.

[GarryB]

Which ones? Cites, sources?

The DARYAL ballistic and space targets detection and tracking radar. It entered service in 1983. (range against targets of ERA of 0.1m is 6,000km).

The Dnepr ballistic and space targets detection and tracking radar.

The DON-2N ballistic and space targets detection and tracking radar.

And the DUNAI-3U ballistic and space targets detection and tracking radar with seperate transmitting and recieving radars spaced 3km apart.

[Nitin_V]

Garry,

Thanks a bunch. Now to go digging!:)

[GarryB]

If it helps any.. here are two pictures of the DON-2N system

[Blackcat]

And I think the Russian counter Battery radars also have AESA, thous Paul may be able to put more info if he has more on that.

Russian Counter Battery Radars, from Mil Parade

The most advanced combat equipment ever manufactured by Antey to support fire weapons of the Ground Forces is the 1L219 Zoopark-1 automated multifunctional radar system for the reconnaissance of enemy artillery positions. It entered service in 1992. Owing to its phased array antennas and electronic beam control, the system's radar can simultaneously process data about 100 targets and control fire of friendly weapons. The reconnaissance range is 40 km. The radar is arranged on an amphibious tracked chassis. In overall performance, the Zoopark-1 radar excels the best foreign equivalents, such as the AM/TPQ-36 and AM/TPQ-37 radars.

[Jai]

Unknown Troops of the Vanished Superpower (http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/program/soviet/jpuma036_94003.htm)

by Col-Gen (Ret) Yu.V. Votintsev
Moscow VOYENNO-ISTORICHESKIY ZHURNAL No 9, 1993 pp 26-38

Construction and installation work was begun at the system installations: at the command post, Dunay-3 (chief designer V.P. Sosulnikov45) and the improved Dunay-3U (chief designer A.N. Musatov46) sector radars, and firing complexes; a technical base was created for preparing and maintaining the antiballistic missiles; and maximum use was made of circular roads, cable communications links, and part of the other structures of the S-25 system, which was efficient and helped reduce spending on the new weapon system.

I will anticipate a question: Why did we not reject the A-35 system? By 1971, only four of the eight Dunay sector radars and eight of the 16 firing complexes had been built. The construction work at these installations was almost completely done, deliveries and installation of technological equipment were completed, and testing had begun. State testing under the direction of the first deputy commander in chief of the National Air Defense Forces, Colonel-General A.F. Shcheglov47, was conducted at the lead complex of the system, consisting of: the main command and computer center (in abbreviated form), one Dunay-3 radar, and three firing complexes. Testing confirmed the correctness of the scientific and technical decisions supporting the combat functioning of the new, complex, and completely automated system for destroying a single-warhead ballistic missile. The system could not work against ballistic missiles with multiple warheads. In this connection, the decision was made, supported by the military-industrial commission (VPK), to finish building the facilities already started: at the second Dunay-3U radar and at five firing complexes.

When the minister asked if the Air Defense Forces were able to detect the launch of Pershing-2 missiles no later than 2-3 minutes after launch, A.I. Koldunov, always thoroughly prepared for such meetings, reported that this mission was partially being accomplished. The minister demanded an explanation from me, as an expert. I said that the Dunay-3U long-range detection radar from a separate ABM corps, oriented to the west, is capable of accomplishing this mission in this search sector covering the northern and central part of the FRG. The southern part of the FRG territory is not monitored by our assets at extremely low angles. D.F. Ustinov right then instructed the chief of the General Staff to assign the appropriate task to the scientific research institutes and design bureaus.

Academician V.S. Semenkhin59 became involved in the work to solve the problem of detecting the Pershing-2 missiles, 27 of which were deployed in the southern part of the FRG. Several projects were developed, requiring much time and expenditures. As often happened during my time in the service, the solution came not from a scientific research institute or design bureau, but from the troops. A group of officers, innovative engineers--T.Ye. Kozhemyakin, A.A. Peresypkin, and V.A. Shelopin--under the direction of the deputy for technical affairs of the Dunay-3U sector radar, I.S. Lipatov, substantiated and submitted a proposal to modify the transceivers. Such a seemingly simple solution made it possible to expand the search sector and reliably cover the entire territory of the FRG.

[Jai]

Putin to watch India’s aviation might in B’lore (http://epaperdaily.timesofindia.com/Daily/skins/TOI/navigator.asp?Daily=TOIM&AW=1102165396250)

The Indian participation is also key to the Russians in their fifth generation fighter programme as most of the technologies are being mastered during the SU-30 MKI development phase. With the Indian strength in avionics proved to perfection in the SU-30 MKI programme, DRDO officials want greater assurance from the Russians for the fifth-generation programme.

“We want bigger say in the SU-30 MKI upgradation and fifth generation aircraft plans. They should give us 50% of work in avionics and we also wish to have little more transparency when the Russian engineers interact with us,’’ said R P Ramalingam, director of Defence Avionics and Research Establishment, a unit of DRDO. For the SU-30 MKI avionics, the DRDO has supplied mission computer, display processors, hardware and software. For the advanced multimode radar, it has supplied the radar data processors.

[Jai]

INDIA MAY HELP RUSSIA DEVELOP FIGHTERS (http://en.rian.ru/rian/index.cfm?prd_id=160&msg_id=5162008&startrow=1&date=2004-12-02&do_alert=0)

NEW DELHI, December 2 (RIA Novosti) - Russia can independently develop fifth generation fighters in 5-7 years, but foreign capital can considerably reduce the timeframe, Anatoli Mazurkevich, head of the Defense Ministry's main board for international military cooperation, told RIA Novosti in an interview.

Fifth generation fighters have not been developed yet. He said that Russia could develop them with foreign countries. Russia has already made this proposal to India and France.

Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov told journalists in New Delhi that most likely the fighters would be developed with India.

"I am pessimistic about France," Mr. Ivanov said. "We will have other plans with France."

Mr. Mazurkevich told RIA Novosti that Russia could decide to develop the fifth generation fighters alone.

"We will develop these fighters anyway," he said. "International cooperation would certainly help us, but we can do it ourselves."

[lider]

http://paralay.narod.ru/pakfasu.html :)

[ogami musashi]

Thoses drawings are official?

Looks like an F-22 in a uglier way (personal opinion).
Well....if it flies well.

[Himanshu]

Lider.. can you help interpreting the data on that site...

[WACHENR0DER]

Thoses drawings are official?

Looks like an F-22 in a uglier way (personal opinion).
Well....if it flies well.

I hope not, the drawings are all inconsistant with each other.. you have two that have an YF-22 style forward fueselage with a long radome and bubble canopy, while the other ones have a much smaller radome and canopy. The drawing with the Yak-141 has 2d nozzles, while the rest have 3d.

I've a feeling the picture with the bald guy and model really is an YF-22

[SOC]

Based on what's been said in the open press, the closest thing to what the T-50 should look like is the plan view drawing showing the T-50 and Su-47.

[Blackcat]

Sean ,

yes, i think its gonna bsed on the S-47 with a conventional backward swept wing ...... i mostly believe the Pak-Fa is gonna resemble the conventional swept winged like what the right side drawing shows, a CG image is also there below along with the F-22, which means ..... it cud actually be nearer to this one ......

[SOC]

Sukhoi said in a press release a while back that while the definitive final configuration is being tweaked, the design will resemble the Su-47 but with a more conventional layout (i.e. no FSW).

[almond]

It looks brilliant, but what about the radar. NIIR and NIIP are still fighting on about that one. And it also seems that someone does not want to take the effort and has the money to make an APAR.

[Blackcat]

these two are actually the same, isn't it??....... except for a small difference with a more angled stablisers, a bit different canopy and possible the wing root (?) ....

[Blackcat]

oh yean 4got to tell abt the nose ........

[WACHENR0DER]

They are very different. The drawing has inward canted fins, the CG has outward canted fins like the F-22.

There's also that little fence by the fin, not sure if that really helps for RCS.
Cockpit has a frame in the canopy in the drawing, but the CG is frameless.

I think this is more of a fan art if anything.

[SOC]

What's really funny is that Yakovlev is supposed to be working on V/STOL systems for a version of the T-50. I just don't see that one happening.

[FrancisDeAssisi]

I N T E L L I G E N C E O N L I N E

India, Russia to build gen-next fighter

13 December 2004: India and Russia have agreed for joint development and production of a fifth-generation fighter aircraft to match the capabilities of the US F-22, and while this will be built on an Su-30 airframe, the engine, wings, avionics, fuel tank, and cockpit characteristics will be changed.

Decided during Russian president Vladmir Putin’s visit to India, the technical committees of the two sides will meet in March next year, and a joint-venture company to manufacture the aircraft will be floated, with a target to induct it into the Indian and Russian air forces by year 2015.

Sources said that Putin had agreed for India to scout for Western technologies to radically upgrade the fighter, which will be assembled in India, with improved sensor capability, integrated avionics, and finer situational awareness.

The competing Lockheed/ Boeing F-22 is being tested since April this year, incorporating stealth technology, a supercruise engine, and with a “first look/ first shot/ first kill” feature in all environments.

The Russians themselves began work on a fifth-generation Su-47 in 2002 with characteristic forward-swept wings, and although the aircraft’s performance was impressive, further testing has been dogged by funding problems, and the project has reverted to more conventional wings.

It is not clear how the new decision fits with the Su-47 research so far, but sources said the Russian side is keen to get started.

[SOC]

Su-30 airframe? It sounds like they're talking an Su-30MKI upgrade, not a new aircraft.

That, of course, would have nothing whatsoever to do with the T-50 PAK-FA, though.

[FrancisDeAssisi]

Su-30 airframe? It sounds like they're talking an Su-30MKI upgrade, not a new aircraft.

That, of course, would have nothing whatsoever to do with the T-50 PAK-FA, though.

lol. Take that with a pinch of salt.

As per the description of the aircraft, it sounds more like an Su-35. But there is indeed only one 5th generation project going on in Russia as of now. Atleast we on this forum can't confuse between that.

But at the end of the day there is nothing official about the T/50 specs as well.

[FrancisDeAssisi]

I would like to speculate on the existence of two designs for the PAK-FA project. One a single-engined design probably with a remote resemblance to the Su-30 air frame which would correspond more to the likes of the single-engined version of the JSF and which includes Vertical/Standard Take-off and landing.

Secondly a twin-engined fighter that resembles more to the F-22, and which is an entirely new airframe unlike the first one. Evaluation of different designs has possibly narrowed down to these two.

[SOC]

The first of the two was the original LFS project. At some point, Russia decided that they really did want an F/A-22 size aircraft after all, and not a JSF equivalent.

[FrancisDeAssisi]

The first of the two was the original LFS project. At some point, Russia decided that they really did want an F/A-22 size aircraft after all, and not a JSF equivalent.

Have they really ?

It's not for the first time that the flip-flop over the 'flanker' inspired derivative of the Pak-fa project is coming into news. And in the above case I was referring to the Pak-fa project including implementation of both the above designs with the ultimate objective of operationalising both. One as a naval carrier version and the other as a 'raptorised' version but with both under the branchead of the Pak-fa project.

[SOC]

With their economic situation I really don't see Russia developing a second design just for carrier service on a single deck.

As to the size of the PAK-FA, the PAK-FA acronym refers to the larger of the two projects. It replaced the LFS. Which in turn had replaced the MFI. There have been talks of a FLANKER-derivative for years, and not necessarily relating to a fifth-generation fighter project. Remember the S-54/S-55 designs?

Also, no one knows how new or old some of those designs on that website are. In fact, the wind tunnel models and some of the others actually resemble Yakovlev's MFI contender more than anything else.

[FrancisDeAssisi]

Russian 5th generation fighter to fly in 2007, says air force chief
03-Dec-2004 17:31 GMT Source: Financial Times Limited

Text of report in English by Russian news agency Interfax-AVN web site

Moscow, 3 December: The 5th generation combat aircraft under development for the Russian air force at the Sukhoi company will fly no later than 2007, Army General Vladimir Mikhaylov, air force commander-in-chief, told Interfax-Military News Agency on Friday [ 3 December].

"I earlier reported to the supreme commander-in-chief (President Vladimir Putin - Interfax-AVN) exactly the same, and I have no doubts that it is real," he said.

He added that he had visited Sukhoi on Thursday, and spent in excess of three hours discussing the problems arising in the course of the new combat tactical aircraft development. He also said that "a great work has been done" in this sphere. "I am satisfied with the results. The electronic model of the 5th generation fighter is ready, its aerodynamics and other parameters calculated," he said.

According to him, over 100 Defence Ministry specialists, and both military and civilian research and development institutions are analysing the work done. "We instructed them to find as many shortcomings as possible so that the developers could eliminate them at early stages of the process and could move further at higher tempo," he said.

"There are some unsolved problems, for instance, with the weapons suite and avionics. We should think over the possibility of introducing foreign elements, or maybe refuse this possibility at all. However, these are all on-stream problems, and we have made a good step forward, even in light of the limited funding in 2003-2004 and 2005," he added.

"The aircraft will fly in 2007. I told Mikhail Pogosyan (the Sukhoi director general - Interfax-AVN) yesterday that the aircraft should fly in 2007, let it be 31 December, but 2007. I am sure that the task will be fulfilled," he said.

Addressing the question whether the new aircraft will be a real 5th generation or a further derivative of the existing Su family, Mikhaylov said: "Of course, it will be a totally new aircraft. As for the modifications, we are working at them too. Last year, we made the Su-27SM Flanker. It was a good one. Even those who offered other modernization parameters recognize this fact. The Su-27SM is close to the 5th generation aircraft in terms of performance, but will never reach it, as the backlogs on the 5th generation tactical fighter will turn even better with the years."

[SOC]

And there you have it: not a FLANKER derivative.

[ink]

But would a Berkut derivative be considerred a FLANKER derivative? In my opinion it should be - seeing as the Berkut is itself a FLANKER derivative.

[SOC]

Berkut isn't exactly a FLANKER derivative, it just used some FLANKER components for simplicity of design. It used tailfins, landing gear, and a few other minor components. The majority of the airframe is clearly not related to the FLANKER.

[Srbin]

I think the best option for the PAK-FA in terms of weight and size is something like the Mig-29/Typhoon/Rafale/F-18E/F and I am sure the Russians can achieve the same performance. The Typhoon/Rafale are pretty light, powered by two medium thrust engines. A bigger aircraft the size of F-15/Su-27 would just be unaffordable. A multirole in a medium weight would be pretty competitive. I think with modern technology, they can achieve similar performance with a medium fighter compared to an older Su-27 or F-15, kinda like what Typhoon and Rafale have done.

[SOC]

Russia went the JSF-equivalent route already, and later changed their mind, going for a heavier F/A-22 class aircraft instead. Hence, the T-50 PAK-FA.

[Billy Bishop]

Wasn't the T-50 a project for a stealthy Tu-160/Tu-22 replacement?

[Billy Bishop]

Never mind, that was the T-60S.

http://www.aeronautics.ru/t60sb.jpg

[Billy Bishop]

I hope Russia goes it alone even if it costs more. If they cooperate with India then India will learn Russian design secrets and be less reliant on Russia in the future which means less profit.

[SOC]

That's the T-60S Joint Continental Bomber project, which was to have been primarily a BACKFIRE replacement, not BLACKJACK.

[WACHENR0DER]

Russian 5th generation fighter to fly in 2007, says air force chief
03-Dec-2004 17:31 GMT Source: Financial Times Limited
The electronic model of the 5th generation fighter is ready, its aerodynamics and other parameters calculated," he said.


Electronic Model? they could've just said CG or artist rendition :p

but I am really curious to how it looks, I hope they'll release a picture of it soon.

[SOC]

That's probably just Russian for computer-generated blueprints :D

[WACHENR0DER]

what's the story behind this picture? supposedely it was a 5th generation Sukhoi LFI?

http://www.aeronautics.ru/img/img004/lfs_001.jpg

[SOC]

That's what I seem to recall. Probably an advanced offshoot of the S-54/S-55 program.

[Crowley]

The electronic model is more likely one of the more promising concepts modelled and stuck into a computer simulator. I would not be surprised if they've flown the plane virtually, though it would be nothing like the production version.

[FrancisDeAssisi]

From various reports online, it appears that the Pak-fa won't carry the Phazotron N-014 Passive Phased Array Radar. Instead it will have an entirely new Active Phased Array Radar.

[Blackcat]

I hope this one see light in the future - RAC-MiG LFi ----- as a Indian Navy - RAC-MiG project so as for the next gen a/c for the carriers as well as a lighter 5th Gen Fighter.

RAC-MiG has been reported to be working on their own 5th Gen a/c, so hope this one come to life. An indian involvement in the form of funding and others wud definetely help this move forward in a much faster pace.

Moreover the two projects --- IAF-Russian for 5th Gen AF figher (heavy) and Indian Navy - RAC-MiG for Naval (& AF) 5th Gen (Light) fighter can get and compliment each other in the development of the stuffs, with the outcome being an AF and Naval 5th Gen fighter.

Now the funding and the advance payment issues shud not arise, as India shud give the advance for the fighters and not bank on the silly issues like we cant buy a fighter after funding the development of it, like the case of many other deals. The Russian companies (mainly RAC-MiG) wont be able to do it from their pocket as such, so an investment from the Indian side wud be a very positive development.

But then this (advance payment or investment) shud not come as an obstacle coz even the well Nourished Isrealis had squeezed out an advanced payment of $350million from the Indians for the Phalcon.

(Added Later)
As Paul said, the below pictures are not that of MiG-LFi, but that of Integral. Sorry for the mistake.

[FrancisDeAssisi]

wasn't the MiG LFI sold lock, stock, and barrel to Iran for some project called 'shafaqh' and probably has exactly 1 number of prototypes built on that basis.

[aerospacetech]

Mikoyan offered a medium size project powered by two RD-33 derivatives, but that wasn't acceptable.

The size issue is dominated by the existence of only 2 possible engines; RD-33 upgrades and AL-31F upgrades (I know that Soyuz are pushing R-79M derivatives, but they aren't based on production items). Given that the Russians demanded two engines, you can only choose either a MiG-29 sized or an Su-27 sized aircraft. I think that Mikoyan's proposal made more sense, but politically and economically stronger, Sukhoi's proposal was bound to win.

Oh, and for about the 1 millionth time, thats not the "MiG LFI" its the 'Mukhamedov' OKB "Integral" project which led to the Russian/Iranian "Shafagh". Russia has apparently pulled out, leaving Iran developing it alone.

[Blackcat]

I don think so, though its rumoured, RAC-MiG is not gonna simply leave - probably their best bet of 5th Gen - like that, but the Yakolev's design for the JSF is a different story.

[RajKhalsa]

T-50?

http://img90.exs.cx/img90/7840/t509ac.jpg

[FrancisDeAssisi]

Supercruise @ Mach 1.6 is awesome.

veiculosmilitares.vila.bol.com.br/ 2003/pakfa2.JPG

[ink]

Sean,

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the design of the Berkut fuselage still heavily based on the FLANKER fuselage, albeit with significant modifications?

Furthermore, the T-50 line-drawing posted by RajKhalsa shows that it still has the FLANKER's distinctive "crane" look. They should seriously do something about that to reduce the forward crosss-section.

[FrancisDeAssisi]

Sean,

They should seriously do something about that to reduce the forward crosss-section.

About the 'Droopy Nose' look !

Does it have any advantages in terms of performance, visibility or manouvrability ?? :confused:

My feeling is that it should have some since that must be one of the reasons it was incorporated into the Flankers in the first place.

The Russians already have some experience in reducing the so-called 'forward cross-section' through changes made in the MiG29-M2.

[SOC]

I don think so, though its rumoured, RAC-MiG is not gonna simply leave - probably their best bet of 5th Gen - like that, but the Yakolev's design for the JSF is a different story.

MiG had nothing to do with it in the first place.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the design of the Berkut fuselage still heavily based on the FLANKER fuselage, albeit with significant modifications?

That's a good question, I'll look into that one.

Furthermore, the T-50 line-drawing posted by RajKhalsa shows that it still has the FLANKER's distinctive "crane" look. They should seriously do something about that to reduce the forward crosss-section.

The other T-50 plan view is much more accurate, that one is just an old (and inaccurate) Su-47 drawing edited to have normal wings.

[ink]

The other T-50 plan view is much more accurate, that one is just an old (and inaccurate) Su-47 drawing edited to have normal wings.

Ah, didn't realise - I was fooled by the fact that it was more comrehensive (i.e. not just a plan view) and wrongly assumed that it was more recent. Actually, I should have realised as the Berkut's nose doesn't droop much (or at all - I'll have to dig out some pics to check).

[ink]

Actually, I should have realised as the Berkut's nose doesn't droop much (or at all - I'll have to dig out some pics to check).

Nope - no noticable drooping of the nose in these pics.

[F-18 Hamburger]

T-50?

http://img90.exs.cx/img90/7840/t509ac.jpg

I can say i am not impressed with it.. it's just a horrible looking beast it is.. horrible horrible. Nothing about it's physical features scream 5th generation except perhaps a bomb bay. they might as well rebuild this

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/airdef/f-102-bottom.jpg

It's cheap, it's proven, got an interior weapons bay, and is so simple to fly that even the US president can fly one of these :dev2:

[FrancisDeAssisi]

T-50 ?

http://img90.exs.cx/img90/7840/t509ac.jpg

It's a beautiful plane.

Awesome....simply awesome.

Supercruise@mach 1.7 and 4000 km range with Internal Fuel. ;)

[ink]

Well Mr. Hamburger, I have to say, as unexpected as this is for me, I actually agree with you - it does look horrible. I will add, though, that this is only a potential outline of the final aircraft - nobody on here knows what it will look like.

[RajKhalsa]

It does look retro

[FrancisDeAssisi]

Well Mr. Hamburger, I have to say, as unexpected as this is for me, I actually agree with you - it does look horrible. I will add, though, that this is only a potential outline of the final aircraft - nobody on here knows what it will look like.

well going by the yankee maxim, "bigger is better".

The Sukhoi T-50 is definitely bigger than the Raptor.

As to how much better....well .... gotta wait.

[vksac]

Have the russians attempted any delta wing designs for fighters in the past?

[Tiger_01]

PAKFA reminds me the moments that most Indians were posting that FC1 was just a paperplane. It was never going to fly. Now we will see how far cripled Russian economy can go with PAKFA. Besides pictures we haven't seen much. Not even with a lot of pr from India. Or are we totally wrong? Enlighten me. (Harry this is not even close to your remarks about fc1 so leave it to others).

[SOC]

Have the russians attempted any delta wing designs for fighters in the past?

The MiG 1.44 was a canard delta, but it flew twice.

PAKFA reminds me the moments that most Indians were posting that FC1 was just a paperplane. It was never going to fly. Now we will see how far cripled Russian economy can go with PAKFA. Besides pictures we haven't seen much. Not even with a lot of pr from India. Or are we totally wrong? Enlighten me.

Pakistani FC-1s DO exist on paper only. Have they been inducted yet? Do any exist outside China? No? PAPER.

And of course you haven't seen much on the PAK-FA, the project is just getting out of the design stage :rolleyes:

[aerospacetech]

http://paralay.narod.ru/pakfamig.html

This guy has some interesting images, but this page calls his research into question- I drew this, and posted it as a "what-if". It is in no way a real image!

[FrancisDeAssisi]

Now we will see how far cripled Russian economy can go.

With oil priced at above 40$ in the international market ?? HELL NO !

Russia is rolling in money today. :D

[Tiger_01]

>>>Pakistani FC-1s DO exist on paper only. Have they been inducted yet? Do any exist outside China? No? PAPER.

I rest my case. One sided opinion. At the same time PAKFA is flying around? It is the same logic I see with rating. IAF topics have high ratings. Isn;t that accidental or typical? Feel free to fill in the logic.

[Tiger_01]

With oil priced at above 40$ in the international market ?? HELL NO !

Russia is rolling in money today. :D

I doubt that Russia is rolling in the money. Maybe the criminals but looking at the military forces they are happy to sell anything.

[Victor]

The Israeli military industry is in a pretty dire fiscal situation with their industry dependent on exports. Does that mean the Israelis can't produce sophisticated stuff?

FYI, Russia is one of the fasted growing economies in the world, faster than some wanna be fast growing economies...

[Tiger_01]

Mayeb if you know who paid for Arrow, Lavi and almost all other projects then you might see the whole picture. pssss... It was US funding.

[Victor]

Nope, the US doesn't fund internal Israeli programs. That's the main gripe b/w Israel and the US. The US funding goes towards subsidizing US companies, not Israeli ones. Hence, my point. I referred to the Israeli military INDUSTRY not the military. It's not in the US' interests to develop the Israeli industry hence Israeli funds the vast majority of its industry from internal resources. Nearly all of Israel's success in the military export business has been on the back of its internally developed products. Please educate yourself first and then make snide remarks.

[FrancisDeAssisi]

I doubt that Russia is rolling in the money. Maybe the criminals but looking at the military forces they are happy to sell anything.

Well the bigger question is whether Russia can implement a 5th generation fighter by itself. I think the answer is yes, because it has all the infrastructure required to undertake that level of a project. But there will be a few Chinks in the armor, a few niggles that would require time and funding to sort out. And it is exactly in that department that some strategic alliances could sort out much like the JSF.

The Pak-Fa needs to be an outstanding and highly versatile platform equally as it needs to be an outstanding fighter. And I think the Russians recognize that fact. And my opinion is that they are upto making such a platform.

p.s. And guys plz keep this thread to the 'T-50 Project' discussions only.

[Tiger_01]

To be honest? Russia will more do for India (and the cash there) then for its own forces! Look at MKI, Brahmos, Ghorskov and a lot more. They do not induct these weapons in huge quantities in Russian forced, do they? :D

[WACHENR0DER]

The T-50 specs posted there is virtually identical to what you would find on a Su-3X series.. it's silghtly longer than all the flankers, but slightly shorter than the Fullback.

compare it with this..
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=46774&stc=1

So ultimately basic performance seems the same.. not bad as the Flanker has great range and carrying capacity. plus with an AESA type radar and internal carriage too.

[yerna1]

>>>Pakistani FC-1s DO exist on paper only. Have they been inducted yet? Do any exist outside China? No? PAPER.

I rest my case. One sided opinion. At the same time PAKFA is flying around? It is the same logic I see with rating. IAF topics have high ratings. Isn;t that accidental or typical? Feel free to fill in the logic.

The emphasis is on PAKISTAN. There are no FC-1's flying in PAF colors. Its still in development stage.
As for Pak-Fa, I dont see any PR from Indian side or even russian side and you have seen 'Lot of PR from Indian side' :eek: . care to point one official source or any news paper source that talks about Pak-Fa and dwells deep into its capabilities? I have only seen a cursory mention of a joint effort in producing a 5th gen fighter, not even a mention of 'Pak-Fa'.

[SOC]

I rest my case. One sided opinion. At the same time PAKFA is flying around? It is the same logic I see with rating. IAF topics have high ratings. Isn;t that accidental or typical? Feel free to fill in the logic.

How was that one sided? PAF FC-1s do currently exist only on paper, as does the PAK-FA. I told you why there hasn't been much on the PAK-FA, it is just getting out of the design stage.

As for thread ratings, I could really care less, I don't pay any attention to them myself.

[nirav]

How was that one sided? PAF FC-1s do currently exist only on paper, as does the PAK-FA. I told you why there hasn't been much on the PAK-FA, it is just getting out of the design stage.


don't argue SOC.... he already referred to you as "in bed with your indian friends"..... you don't want to incur his wrath....:D let him believe what he wants to believe....

okay... so there are three squadrons of FC-1s flying in PAF colours.....

happy ? PLA ?? :)

[ink]

Wheres a dictatorial moderator when you need one? Arthur?? ;)

Back on topic: I have two questions for anyone brave enough to assume the answers: - 1. Will the T-50/PAK-FA have external hard-points for air-ground missions in order for it to be able to carry heavy air to groound ordinance such as KAB-1500?
- 2. Will the T-50/PAK-FA be lumbered with a Yakovlev designed VSTOL lifting fan? Don't laugh, I've heard it mentioned before. A VSTOL FLANKER sized aircraft - - please don't laugh, I meant that to be a serious question.

[nirav]

Wheres a dictatorial moderator when you need one? Arthur?? ;)

according to Tiger, Arthur is also "in bed with his indian friends" :D

[SOC]

Ink:

1-Nobody knows yet. I guess it would depend on the size of the internal bays, but I wouldn't bet against external hardpoints being an option for missions where stealth is a lesser priority.

2-I've heard the same thing. Didn't hear about a lift fan, but I have seen Yakovlev mentioned in association with the PAK-FA, being responsible for an unidentified V/STOL system. It might work, the F-35 isn't a small aircraft, and Yakovlev certainly has a good experience base to draw from.

[Blackcat]

I can say i am not impressed with it.. it's just a horrible looking beast it is.. horrible horrible. Nothing about it's physical features scream 5th generation except perhaps a bomb bay. they might as well rebuild this
this was the firsr Su-27 before it accumulated many lovers for itself!

[aerospacetech]

I believe Soyuz are working on an engine for PAK-FA based on the Yak-141's R-79M called R145M-300, developing 16,000kg thrust. They'd also need either a liftjet or a fan system at the front to balance it.

[Blackcat]

hey can some one post pics of the MiG-LFi??

Sean, Paul, Ken ???

[Coach]

some pics have been posted earlier in this thread (page 2 & 5), a collection of pics and further information you can find here:

http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws001/s5455biblio.htm

[ink]

2-I've heard the same thing. Didn't hear about a lift fan, but I have seen Yakovlev mentioned in association with the PAK-FA, being responsible for an unidentified V/STOL system. It might work, the F-35 isn't a small aircraft, and Yakovlev certainly has a good experience base to draw from.

I have to say that will be the first to eat my words if the Russians actually manage it but it still seems like an unnecessary, overly complicated expense.

[FrancisDeAssisi]

Frankly speaking and to be really honest I don't see the VSTOL happening in the Sukhoi T-50. It is just too damn big for such an exercise or adventure.

Something smaller like the LFI stands a better chance to see a Yakovlev inspired lift-fan. Probably this is where MiG corp comes into the picture. But people here have appraised strong funding apprehensions to undertake two seperate 5th gen projects and I probably just might share some of their reservations.

But one can always guess the incremental expenditure involved in something like the VSTOL MiG-LFI which shares majorly with almost all of the SuKhoi T-50 components.

[over G]

hmmm again the pakfa, i had read some posts, there are my comments...

1) berkut fuselage is not based in flankers, no way, its more like an f18 (even lerx)

2) i hope that the pakfa wont be designed with internal bay, that could be a mistake, but using an special low-drag arragment for missiles (like tornado,f14,etc) in an internal mid-intakes "canal" (like mig29,f14,su27,etc) could be an smarter solution

3)the concept posted by rajkhalsa is UGLY

4)maybe the pakfa will look like the f23 with an delta or flanker wing and with vertical fins (i think that is the shape that the russians could work better) but thats only an speculation

[FrancisDeAssisi]

the concept posted by rajkhalsa is UGLY



Look carefully below the picture. The named credited is 'Piotr Butowski'.

If there is someone credible and independent who knows what the T-50 would look like, that would be him.

[over G]

well, its based only on the declarations of the "berkut without FSW", but i have my doubts of the sukhoi unstable concept since the mig team joined in the proyect, i had seen better stealth-supercruiser concepts from su-mig, i think that the mr.butowsky concept would be an bad idea (at least not better than the raptor)

[ink]

1) berkut fuselage is not based in flankers, no way, its more like an f18 (even lerx)

2) i hope that the pakfa wont be designed with internal bay, that could be a mistake, but using an special low-drag arragment for missiles (like tornado,f14,etc) in an internal mid-intakes "canal" (like mig29,f14,su27,etc) could be an smarter solution


Actually although the layout of the fuselage is visually different from that of a FLANKER - i.e. the engines are closer together - I am still pretty sure (based on something I read some time ago) that it is heavily influenced by the fuselage design of the FLANKER. As for the LERX - well the FULCRUM and FLANKER both have LERX - whats your point?

Regarding the internal weapons bay - that is a completely solid design feature - there is absolutely no reason for the designers to change that. Why would 4th gen design solutions be better for the PAK-FA than a 5th gen one?

[Blackcat]

About the 'Droopy Nose' look !

Does it have any advantages in terms of performance, visibility or manouvrability ?? :confused:

My feeling is that it should have some since that must be one of the reasons it was incorporated into the Flankers in the first place.

The Russians already have some experience in reducing the so-called 'forward cross-section' through changes made in the MiG29-M2.
I think u missed the drawing , as the drawing is a bit angles, its not level, with the nose whell part being lower it can also be noticed in the front view, with shows the nose wheel a bit lower than the other two.

But in general, the Droopy nose is for a better visiblity.


hey no one got MiG- LFi pics???

[Tiger_01]

With Russia cripling we just need to see what India will get.

[Blackcat]

With Russia cripling we just need to see what India will get.
Knock Knock Knock ....... its Dec 2004, 2005 is just a few weks away. :p

Have u been crippled since childhood

[Tiger_01]

standard of returning personal flame? Somehow you guys are dreaming during daytime. How is it possible that I don't see Russia as a tiger? In the west Russia is a broken country. Warsaw pact is almost Nato. Their country is fragmented. Their forces are weak. And there is little innovation. They are not even able to help to get Kaveri up and running :D

[Blackcat]

its isn't flame my dear friend.

U need to come out of 'WEST' to know what Russian actually is and what it was!

also Warsaw is not Russia!

[ink]

Tiger,
I think that maybe your point would have been better made if you had said, "I suspect that Russia will not have the resources to realise its 5th generation fighter project, although it will be interesting if India is able to lend a hand."

Blackcat,
Had your response been, "Actually Russia has one of the fastest growing economies in the developed/semi-developed world and are chanelling increasing funds into their defense R&D budget. Resultantly, my opinion is that they will realise their 5th generation fighter project." We might have avoided the danger of a flame starting in what is otherwise a very good thread.

Stop bickering please.

[jawad]

Tiger,
I think that maybe your point would have been better made if you had said, "I suspect that Russia will not have the resources to realise its 5th generation fighter project, although it will be interesting if India is able to lend a hand."

Blackcat,
Had your response been, "Actually Russia has one of the fastest growing economies in the developed/semi-developed world and are chanelling increasing funds into their defense R&D budget. Resultantly, my opinion is that they will realise their 5th generation fighter project." We might have avoided the danger of a flame starting in what is otherwise a very good thread.

Stop bickering please.
They will look to do it as soon as possible as Defence industry is playing a big role in their growth (specially Aircraft industry)

[over G]

Actually although the layout of the fuselage is visually different from that of a FLANKER - i.e. the engines are closer together - I am still pretty sure (based on something I read some time ago) that it is heavily influenced by the fuselage design of the FLANKER. As for the LERX - well the FULCRUM and FLANKER both have LERX - whats your point?


ink, with all respect, you can read everything what you want, but the berkut desing have nothing to do with the flanker (maybe only that huge nose :D ), about the flankrum :p lerx design, is completely diferent of the berkut-f18 lerxs


Regarding the internal weapons bay - that is a completely solid design feature - there is absolutely no reason for the designers to change that. Why would 4th gen design solutions be better for the PAK-FA than a 5th gen one?

well that was an personal opinion, but i think that internal bay concept is an waste of time and resources, simpler is better.

[over G]

an question, when the I2000 migs concept was made public????, and when the iran-russian cooperation in that concept started?????, that design was only for an subsonic trainer, or supersonic aircraft????, i really dont have enought information of that plane (or proyect), whe could start an I2000 vs MAKO thread :p

[Blackcat]

still no one got any pic of MiG's LFI??

[over G]

yes blackcat, i had seen the shape of the i2000, but i want to know if that proyect was started after or before the 1.44-42 proyect and if it have something to do with it(both concepts are very diferent), if the sukhoi LFI concept have something to do with the berkut, and from wich team design (su-mig) came the mayority of the russian design concept (i think from the mig), so its probable that the new pakfa wont be an modified berkut,maybe.

[Deino]

Just to enjoy ! Started by overscan .... Thanks a lot !! :eek:

Two treads at the what-if forum regarding Mikoyan MFI/1.44 ideas and a possible Production configuration:

http://www.whatifmodelers.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=4558

... and some interesting models of the Sukhoi S-32/S-37/Su-47 Berkut:

http://www.whatifmodelers.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=4561


Deino :D

[over G]

well lets analyse....and speculate..... :)

there 4-5 probable airframes for the pakfa;

1) the mig lfi (that flying saucer)
2) sukhoi lfi (delta flanker)
3) mig 144 (russian frankenstein eurofighter-prototipe)
4) berkut genetic xperiment with f18 wings
5) f22 clone (no pleeease other raptor, noooooo!!!)

any more???? :confused: (im really confused) :p

i go for something between the sukhoi lfi- mig 144, both are similar (in the main concept), specially an delta flanker close to an f23

[Sundog]

My Guess is the PAK-FA will look similar to the T-50 drawing. A conventionally tailed aircraft has control advantages over a canard design, so I doubt they will use a canard, unless it is a three surface design like the Su-35. Many countries are using canards to make a smaller aircraft for the given mission, which lowers airframe cost. However, large airframes tend to be better than small ones, in terms of the lifetime service, because it allows more growth potential.

Also, by it's very nature, the PAK-FA has to be large, if it is going to take on the Raptor. It's simply a function of the mission statement. Partly due to the need for an internal missle bay, which isn't just for stealth, but lowers overall drag compared to an aircraft with external stores, but increases weight. The size is also dictated by the fuel fraction required for the supercruise mission.

[SOC]

there 4-5 probable airframes for the pakfa;

No there aren't, actually

1) the mig lfi (that flying saucer)

Too small, and once again, NOT A MiG DESIGN!

2) sukhoi lfi (delta flanker)

Too small.

3) mig 144 (russian frankenstein eurofighter-prototipe)

Too old, and they'd use the 1.42 design not the 1.44 anwyay.

4) berkut genetic xperiment with f18 wings

According to Sukhoi, that's the plan.

5) f22 clone (no pleeease other raptor, noooooo!!!)

Well, the reworked Su-47 DOES kinda resemble an F/A-22 in some aspects.

[ink]

ink, with all respect, you can read everything what you want, but the berkut desing have nothing to do with the flanker (maybe only that huge nose :D ), about the flankrum :p lerx design, is completely diferent of the berkut-f18 lerxs.

I'm guessing that your comment is based on something you read? Or maybe you just took a look at the photos and then went ahead and expressed a personal opinion?

In any case I already made it clear that I wasn't certain about the FLANKER relationship and I initially brought it up in order to find out whether anyone could assert otherwise. I was hoping for some more solid evidence than the fact that the LERXs look similar to those of the F-18.

well that was an personal opinion, but i think that internal bay concept is an waste of time and resources, simpler is better.

Yes, it is my personal opinion that the internal weapons bays are a solid design feature - as already mentioned by Sundog they reduce drag and make it easier to fly longer and further in super-cruise etc etc. They also, however, make it easier to reduce the aircraft's RCS when performing air-to-air missions or maybe even air-to-ground missions (if equipped with suitable ordinance). As for simpler being better, a decent statement and one designers should remember more often perhaps but there are times when you just have to complicate things in order to stay in the game (or get ahead of it. Otherwise the world's airforces would still be happy with Sopwith Camels. Not that internal weapons bays are the world's most compex aircraft design feature.

[SOC]

Not that internal weapons bays are the world's most compex aircraft design feature.

Didn't that technology first appear in bombers, before the second world war? :D

the berkut desing have nothing to do with the flanker

Except, of course, for the landing gear, the vertical tailfins, and possibly the radome, cockpit canopy, and IRST fairing...

[akj]

ink, with all respect, you can read everything what you want, but the berkut desing have nothing to do with the flanker (maybe only that huge nose :D ), about the flankrum :p lerx design, is completely diferent of the berkut-f18 lerxs



well that was an personal opinion, but i think that internal bay concept is an waste of time and resources, simpler is better.

If there is no internal bay then the aircraft will not be stealthy. So what is the point in having a new aircraft ?. A new non-stealthy plane is 4th gen only..Perhaps 4.999 but still 4th gen.

There is no point in making a new aircraft if its not going to be stealthy..The Su 3x series with TVC is as maneouverable as F22 and the load capacity and range are also good..Its better to add new avionics to them than develop a new non-stealthy plane.

[over G]

ink, i like to read other stuffs that only aeroindustry magazines, sometimes that "specializated" press confuse everything, anyway if you think that the berkut comes from the flanker, thats your opinion and (as i have said many times to avoid problems) i respect it.

i still think that there smarter solutions that the internal bay, anyway thats only an opinion

SOC, that "too small" argument is absurd, mig23 and su24, mig29 and su27 have the same basic configuration, the sukhoi team have said anything more about the pakfa than that classic declatarions of "it will be stealth, supercruiser, new radar,it will be the best fighter in the world"....bla,bla,bla, once they had said (i dont know if it was in fact sukhoi guys) that will be an berkut without fsw, but right now they are saying that will be a completely new aircraft (and maybe they have already selected an configuration), so we just can speculate (those 5-4 airframes) until the airframe shape will revelated maybe the next year, but maybe in the end will be an modified berkut (i also have seen an speculation with bekut airframe and vertical tails as the sukhoi lfi).

hmmm, i was wrong about the mig lfi, thanks for the correction.

[matt]

lmao no one even seen the design or has any idea what the russians have on their computers exxcept for a few sketches and every one is an expert..lmao i love these speculative threads

[Blackcat]

yes, Matt, its very speculatibve.

But I've my bet on the S-37 based designed showed. As its the simplest and fastest way to seeing a Pak-fa fly not later than 2007 (as per Russian general) ... and S-37 based that one is not that bad either, it has got some good design for LO and that can be agumented, aldo, it has got revolving dispensers for R-33 or future R-37 (as per the mechanics site) which also means the bay is a larger than that on F-22. Abt the revolver,, I'd guess its is a 6 AAM revolver for R-37.

Now AL-41 too wud be there with its supercruise etc etc, and in short, combine it (which they have been doing for long, directly and otherwise with the S-37 frame) and what u get before 2007 is a modified S-37 design.

but then its all speculative, but I be pretty happy to see it as shown in the drawing, with fins being outward angled and the lower section of the nose cone being a bit angled etc etc.

[Crowley]

i still think that there smarter solutions that the internal bay, anyway thats only an opinionSuch as?
Having large racks of weapons on the exterior of the plane just makes the plane stand out like a sore thumb on radar screens (unless they somehow make that 'plasma stealth' viable, but let's not go there). Unless you want stealth weapons too.

[over G]

i really like speculative threads, you can post your cocepts, and discuss in a technic way, i have one idea (of many) for the russian 5th generation, i dont like the berkut concept ,i doub that those f18 wings could work good at supercruiser, but in maneuverability maybe perform better (lift vector position), anyway i preffer an delta-cannard configuration (like the mig MFI), maybe the 1.42 in fact was conceived for stealth (the prototipes looks very diferent than the production airframes) theris my 1.42 (the nose must be in a lowe position, but i dont had patience :p );


Such as?
Having large racks of weapons on the exterior of the plane just makes the plane stand out like a sore thumb on radar screens (unless they somehow make that 'plasma stealth' viable, but let's not go there). Unless you want stealth weapons too.

well in the second image you can see thats an very conventional concept (only the frontal missile fin could be visible)

[ink]

ink, i like to read other stuffs that only aeroindustry magazines, sometimes that "specializated" press confuse everything, anyway if you think that the berkut comes from the flanker, thats your opinion and (as i have said many times to avoid problems) i respect it.

As I have said many times, it is not my opinion - it was something I read! As for you convincing me that its false - you haven't. If you have read something in one of those other stuffs that only aeroindustry magazines that can convince me otherwise then I would be very interested in hearing it (it wouldn't surprise me awfully seeing as the idea that the Berkut's fuselage was based heavily on that of the FLANKER was surprising anyway).

Also, could you conjure up a clearer picture of what you were trying to show please - I haven't been able to figure out where that missile is being carried and how exactly that made it stealthier than if it was carried in an internal bay.

[RajKhalsa]

Any idea what this a/c is? Fanart?

http://www1.newsteam.ru/images/2004/186_22.jpg

Looks to be a single engine though...

[SOC]

That's one of Mukhamedov's Integral designs, notice the circular wing center section. From what I can remember single and twin engined designs featuring one or two seats were looked at.

[Deino]

And what's this ... looks for my opinion much like a Yak-concept !

Deino :confused:

[PLA]

Any idea what this a/c is? Fanart?

http://www1.newsteam.ru/images/2004/186_22.jpg

Looks to be a single engine though...

It does exactly like the Iranian shafhaq...

http://www.aeronautics.ru/img/img006/shafagh_iran_001.jpg

[Sundog]

As for the MiG 1.42 having semi recessed external weapons, it was just a prototype. The production version was to have internal weapons bays. What many of you aren't considering is that internal bays also put less stress on the weapons themselves which helps protect seeker heads during normal peacetime operation and/or in poor weather.

As for the "F-18" type wing, such wing planforms offer the best transonic aerodynamic performance where as a delta has lower wave drag at much high mach numbers. Going to an F-18 type wing, tells me the PAK-FA is being designed to be in the F/A-22s performance envelope, an airplane that supercruises at M=1.7 . You really don't need a delta configuration (tailless or with a canard) unless you are using it to make a smaller airframe for a given mission or you're going to be supercruising upwards of M=1.8.

All of what I said above is fact, not speculation, since these are given geometric relationships within aeronautics. IMHO, the MiG 1.42 was the size it was with the planform it had because I would be willing to bet they were going to use it as a replacement for the MiG-31, in lieu of the MiG-701 and to replace Flankers. Therefore, to keep the design as small as possible for that mission they went with a delta canard. The PAK-FA obviously isn't being designed for that mission. The real speculation here is about the mission. The mission designs the aircraft, not the other way around. They are obviously going with an "F-18" style wing because it meets the mission requirements better than a delta wing does.

BTW, for those who don't know what I mean when I say mission, it doesn't mean fighter vs ground attack, it means the mission profile. What's the range? How long does it have to supercruise? What are the weapons loadout requirements? What are the maneuvering requirements? What are the airfield performance specs? etc. Those are the requirements that lead the designers to choose an F-18 style wing instead of a delta. Period. End of story.

[SOC]

It does exactly like the Iranian shafhaq...

Reason being, the Shafaq is derived from the Integral.

Deino, I think that was one of the early Yak-141 concepts.

[over G]

interesting, an technic debate

well sundog your comments are good, but i dont share your opinions completely, yes the trapezoid wing (f18) maybe have the best performance at transonic (althought thats debatible with the propieties of the V wing) as i said it works good in maneuverability, the problem is the leading edge angle, i which the delta have an advantage, you really need deltas at supersonic (even M1.1) to decrease the drag and avoid interaction with the shockwaves, i dont know if the russians have experience in trapezoid wing, but the american experience is not very good in fast planes.

the main problems with deltas was the subsonic"aerodynamic inerce" that was solved with unstable designs, well i dont know if the pakfa will be an unstable plane

but about the final aiframe choosed in the end i might be wrong......or right

[ogami musashi]

new diamond wings (F-22,F-35, T-50) have good wave drag behavior while having very good transonic performance and subsonic too.

Some profile of diamond wing with very low LE angle have better behavior at mach 2 than some deltas.

New research tend to lead to some 35-45° leading edge angle.

by the wayn i think the real progress will be when mophing wings will come.

[Himanshu]

Ogami..
Howz the research going on at NASA about them..

:)

[over G]

ogami, there is a way in supersonic investigation that use the concept of the low leading edge angle, is based in the reduce of the lenght of the edge and the surface in contact with supersonic flow with low angles with an reduction in drag, but this is still an xperimental investigation, only that.

one sees that in this forum is a sin or a curse the "delta" word if it is refered to the f22

the trapezoidal wing is new in russian aerodesigns, i dont think that they will risk the proyect with that concept...but maybe theyre brave enought :D

[ogami musashi]

well maybe, maybe not^_^

I agree the test (including thoses done, and still doing at the nasa) are experimental but you should conceed that the F-22 with only 45° angle is not at the first sight the best wing for thoses speeds, however it works.

As i agree about Nasa experimentals don't forget nasa is not the only one, and this is not because Nasa say its experimental that it is experiemental everywhere.

[matt]

interesting, an technic debate

well sundog your comments are good, but i dont share your opinions completely, yes the trapezoid wing (f18) maybe have the best performance at transonic (althought thats debatible with the propieties of the V wing) as i said it works good in maneuverability, the problem is the leading edge angle, i which the delta have an advantage, you really need deltas at supersonic (even M1.1) to decrease the drag and avoid interaction with the shockwaves

i snipped the rest of !

what ???
:confused: who told you this ?

[over G]

by me

trapezoid wing (f18) maybe have the best performance at transonic


sorry,sorry,sorry, i meant at subsonic (below M0.6), at transonic, low angled big trapezoidal wings dont works good in maneuvres and drag , but perform better than deltas under M.6 (but also suffer AoA-lift limits at such speed)

ogamy the 45º angled deltas is an standar configuration for speed and maneuverability

[ogami musashi]

for supercruise? do you think so? a delta with 45° angle?

[over G]

for supercruise? do you think so? a delta with 45° angle?

why not???? there are other requierements, put 60º and you will have problems with maneuverability , maybe could perform better in supercruiser, but with that you need an larger wing (to mantain an decent wing area) that could induce more drag, also could induce more strong wing tip vortexs and other stuffs, aerodymanics are complex man, also depends of the whole plane design, but those low angled LE had not proved sucefful in high speed planes (but again maybe the russians have a surprise for us, but i doubt)

[ogami musashi]

what i mean is that 45° is relatively low for a delta that goes routinely at mach 1.5-mach 1.7 however it performs well.
You just said something true, one has to consider the whole airframe.
That's precisely why F-16 aerodynamics performs very good in transonic and supersonic.
The fuselage+wing integration allowed to make small less swept wing that it would have been withtout that body vortex lift.


then i don't see anything that would prevent russian from doing a 35-45° LE.

[over G]

well ogami the f16 never was a supersonic machine, f16 supecriser concept wasnt the 16xl???, take a look of that.

what i mean is that 45° is relatively low for a delta that goes routinely at mach 1.5-mach 1.7

i had explained that in the other post, to sustain M1.5 you need lift, and wing area, the plane also needs maneuvre capacity

[SOC]

well ogami the f16 never was a supersonic machine

Mach 2.05 isn't supersonic? On what planet?

[over G]

soc, you know what i mean, "supersonic machine"=supercruiser

[SOC]

Supercruise=the ability to break the sound barrier and cruise at supersonic speeds without using afterburner.

The F-16 can't do that to the best of my knowledge, but it can sustain Mach speeds as long as it has the fule for it. Which, as it has to use afterburner, probably isn't all that long.

[over G]

everybody knows that..

[Sameer]

SOC

IF an F-16 has a full fuel load and uses full afterburners, how many secs or mins of fuel will it have? Also do you have that data on the different fighters of the USAF, eg F-15s, FA-18s etc...

[SOC]

You could make a guess somewhere in the right ballpark if you took the maximum fuel load and computed using the specific fuel consumption of the aircraft's engine when operating in full 'burner. Don't have the right figures off the top of my head, but I'll see if I can find any.

[ogami musashi]

Over g:
We're not talking of ability to pass throught the barrier with or without AB, but about aerodynamical efficiency at high machs.
The F-16 has very good L/D at thoses speed, better than An F-15(yes!).

supersonic manoeuvrability of th eF-16 is very good too.

[over G]

The F-16 has very good L/D at thoses speed, better than An F-15(yes!).

if youre right, the reason is simple, f15s are biger and the eagles curved leading edge dont help..

supersonic maneuverability is an airframe strenght problem, other thing is sustained lift in supersonic fly

[ogami musashi]

yes and you would be surprised that again the F-16 is better at thoses roles!

next the bigger dimensions doesn't affect the L/D that much because for example a mirage 2000 has lower L/D at supersonic than the miraeg 4000 had, this one being two times bigger than the mirage 2000.

[over G]

bigger dimensions affect the drag, now, put more wing area and you have better L/D, but the f15s wing is not very efficient at supersonic, dont have very good fuselage lift, and is not based in lift vortex

L/D is an complicated factor, sometimes to reach better L/Ds you need more relative power, so you range is lower,and you cant sustain that speed too long

im not an mirage4000 expert, but maybe the cause is the cannard (vortex over wing), anyway the f16s angle is 40º an prudent angle, to such configuration and small plane, the GD team needs such angle to increase the wing area (even low) in such small plane , and also to increase the aspect ratio (for subsonic maneuvre), in bigger aircraft you will se always larger angles (yes,yes, but everybody knows the f18 performance-although it have low bypass turbofan-)

[ogami musashi]

We agree on the whole thing...

I wanted to say to you that dimension does not affect L/D directly, and you said it.


I wanted to say that F-16 had a relatively low LE allowed by the vortex lift on body and you said it too.

Aren't we okay?^_^


As for mirage 4000 , yes you're right but also because of relaxed stability (greater than on the mirage 4000) wing surface and profile and finally nose lenght.

[over G]

I wanted to say that F-16 had a relatively low LE allowed by the vortex lift on body and you said it too.

yes, yes, yes, but that wing isnt the best configuration for 5th generation plane (considering supercruiser), i said before in other threads the low efficiency of the f15s wing at supersonic

again,the GD team needs such angle to increase the wing area (even low) in such small plane , and also to increase the aspect ratio (for subsonic maneuvre), in bigger aircraft you will se always larger angles (yes,yes, but everybody knows the f18 performance-although it have low bypass turbofan-) thats also relative with the plane size

and again thats more complicated, you could reach an nice L/D factor, but if for that you need to induce vortex like crazy, you could increase drag, and you will have an poor range (specially at supersonic)

[ogami musashi]

yes totaly agree

[over G]

well, i dont want to take risk right now, specially with an design that doesnt exist -pakfa- (for us), so ,maybe in the final configuration i could be wrong...

im just dont know what the hell the ruskis are thinking right now :D

[RajKhalsa]

Two interesting diagrams I came across

http://img92.exs.cx/img92/6192/sovietstealth5bo.jpg



http://img92.exs.cx/img92/7671/europeanstealth2ni.jpg

[SOC]

Cool diagrams, but the I-2000 is not a MiG product.

[Jai]

Two Main Russian and Indian Manufactured Computers Installed on Su-30MKI



The selection of the software was the main complication in the creation of the equipment for the Su-30MKI fighter. India has a good software product and professional programmers. Of the many operating systems which were presented for competition, the Russian real-time operational environment was selected, the head of the center said.

According to him, great experience in creation of the Su-30MKI fighter’s avionics was required and will increase in work on the creation of equipment for the future aviation complex of tactical aviation PAK FA.) NPTs Tekhnokompleks has participated in and won three competitions: for flight navigational equipment and for computer systems, and also for optical electronic surveillance stations.

As G, Dzhandzhgava was reporting earlier, the cockpit for the PAK FA will be equipped with two large 15-inch displays and wide-angle displays on the heads-up display with output of a television image, that still is not being used either in domestic aircraft manufacture or in foreign.


Source: 19.12.04, AviaPort.RU, Correspondent: Dmitriy Kozlov

[Jai]

Hook-up of RSK MiG to PAK FA Program Creation Possible

The president of OAO Irkut Scientific and Production Complex, Aleksey Fedorov, has announced that at the present time the company is investigating the program for creation of the fifth generation fighter (the Future Aviation Complex of Tactical Aviation, PAK FA), the lead developer of which is the Sukhoy OKB, with consideration of the possibility of the Russian Airplane Building Corporation MiG’s (RSK MiG) hook-up to this project.

As the head of NPK Irkut announced, a series of consultations will take place. Without going into detail, the aforesaid does not mean that RSK MiG will do that project which OAO Sukhoy OKB is developing.

A. Fedorov added that at the present time there is a need for the creation of a PAK FA and there is a concrete project of such a complex which is being developed by the Sukhoy OKB. Undoubtedly, NPK Irkut will be involved with the fifth generation theme, but to what extent and in what form still is early to say, he said.

In his opinion, “We would be glad if we are able to do the project together with OAO Sukhoy OKB or be hooked up to the work. It is unreasonable right now to disperse strengths and resources. It is necessary to think that we will be working together on future projects.”



Source: 14.12.04, AviaPort.RU, Correspondent: Dmitriy Kozlov

[Jai]

Fifth Generation Airplane to Fly in 2007



Usually in December, they ask air force commander-in-chief, General of the Army Vladimir Mikhaylov, what new airplanes will appear next year. But Russkiy Kur’er decided to start the conversation with the CinC about what the distant future would look like for the fifth generation fighter and immediately received a sensational answer.

- Vladimir Sergeevich, usually the military, when it is a question of new equipment, refers to the poor financing. And nevertheless, it is a question about the future. The pentagon maintains that in the U.S., fighter of the new, the fifth generation, will appear in 2008. Our project people always have had a competition with the Americans. Therefore, the question is about how far we will be behind in this business? Or, more concretely: when will what they still call the PAK FA in the air force fly – the future aviation complex for tactical aviation?

- in 2007 our fifth generation airplane will fly. In particular, I have reported earlier to the supreme headquarters about this period for lifting the future tactical aviation air complex into the air, and as of today, I have not doubts in the possibility of this mission’s resolution. I recently visited the Sukhoy company where it is involved with analysis of the problems connected with the creation of the PAK FA. The electronic model of the fifth generation airplane, which defines its aerodynamic aspect and a number of other parameters, is fully ready. We are inciting the engineers to “pick at it”, to find the greatest deficiencies as possible in order at this first stage to eliminate the defects revealed and to move ahead more quickly.

There are unresolved problems, in particular with the armament and avionics. One has to think how to use the import component of the project and whether it is worth doing altogether. This all is working moments, but on the whole we have moved ahead appreciably. Even – at the same time to some kind of degree with limited financing which existed in 2003 and 2004 and is in the plans for 2005. And nevertheless, in 2007 the fifth generation airplane will fly. I said it this way to Mikhail Aslanovich Pogosyan (Sukhoy company general director – author’s note): “It is possible to put up the airplane even on 31 December, but – of 2007.”

- Will the PAK be similar externally to any kind of presently operating aircraft? Especially since right now many tactical aviation airplane are undergoing upgrade considering the buildup on the fifth generation.

- It will be a completely new airplane – that is what I can say for the time being. And as regards upgrades, we are doing them. Last year we made the Su-27SM. The aircraft turned out magnificently. The Su-27SM is close in its combat capabilities to the fifth generation airplane, but it will not reach them, because during these years the margins on the PAK will multiply.

One must note the important role of computer modeling in working on the fifth generation. Earlier we broke airplanes and engines while defining their strength properties. Right now on the computer screens, creating different conditions, we see graphically the strength properties of all the assemblies and units. Computer modeling allows error-free calculation of possible variants and to select the optimal solutions.




Source: 16.12.04, Russkiy Kur’er

[ogami musashi]

well, i dont want to take risk right now, specially with an design that doesnt exist -pakfa- (for us), so ,maybe in the final configuration i could be wrong...

im just dont know what the hell the ruskis are thinking right now :D

Ya, in fact....me tooo :)

[Sens]

SOC

IF an F-16 has a full fuel load and uses full afterburners, how many secs or mins of fuel will it have? Also do you have that data on the different fighters of the USAF, eg F-15s, FA-18s etc...

Hi Sameer some easy calculations.
At sea-level an TF engine with a bypath ratio of 0,5 delivers 12500 kp thrust in max AB and consumes for every kp thrust 2 kg of fuel per hour.
At sea-level it is 12500 kp x 2,0 = 25000 kg per hour or 417 kg per minute.
At max dry it is 8000 x 0,7 = 5600kg per hour or 93 kg per minute.

At 20000 feet the air-pressure is ~ 50% to that at s.l. and the dry thrust too, when the AB thrust did not drop to 50 %. With height a main advantage of AB thrust.
At 40000 feet the air-pressure halfed again and is ~ 25% against 100% at s.l.
The dry thrust is around 25 % when the AB thrust is still ~ 50 % at s.l.
By the way at some height no fighter have a thrust/weight ratio better than one. A much better yardstick is the drag to thrust ratio which becomes important at height, which allows better gains from thrust installed. (The Gripen is an example for that)
You see every pilot has to learn the consumption ratios of his plane/engine, before getting the optimum. Nearly all use computer help by mission planing before. All this is a reason, why practical range is much less than advertised range given. Those are close to airliner profiles.

About TF engines the bypath ratio is important. If the ratio is 0,5 or higher the dry sfc is better than 0,7 but the AB sfc up to 2,0 and higher.
If the ratio is around 0,3 , the dry sfc is around 0,7, but the AB sfc around 0,7.
It depends on your mission-profiles, where you are operating the most time, which engine you choose. In war-time you are looking for maximum thrust in a given role, when in peace-time thrust is not the demanding factor.

FADEC helps out. By western engines "peace-time" ratings are given.
For the EJ-200 you still find 60 kN dry and 90 kN AB. In reality the free or military rating is >70 kN dry and >100 kN. The TBO is reduced by that, but not very much, because the peak values were used short periods (minutes) only. When the higher (peacetime) thrust-levels are published for a newer EJ-200 for example, this is for the same TBO already and wartime rating still higher.

I hope it helps a little. :)

[over G]

At 20000 feet the air-pressure is ~ 50% to that at s.l. and the dry thrust too, when the AB thrust did not drop to 50 %. With height a main advantage of AB thrust.

Sens, man, maybe you are only analysing the turbofan propieties, but not the AB performance, are well known the problems of " ab switch" in high bypass turbofans at heigh and speed, the ab combustion at heigh is basicaly a very very low pressure combustion (bad efficiency),the fans at heigh have a bad performance, in low bypass turbofan the combustion have more pressure, but also depends of the AB design, the size, fuel feed, etc..., at heigh low bypass turbofans induce better performance in afterburners, remember that at the same engine diameter is basicaly the same air flow area (but in turbojets with more pressure and temperature), but also there are limits (near M3), in wich is better the use of ramjets (transforming speed kinetical energy flow in aparent pressure).

[over G]

engineers to “pick at it”, to find the greatest deficiencies as possible in order at this first stage to eliminate the defects revealed and to move ahead more quickly

one more reason for an more conventional airframe ,i hope that will be an flanker modification, that could be an masterful move :D :D :)

[heeroyui]

Hello

T-50 PAKFA

Sukhoi's project to develop the PAK FA next-generation fighter (right) will be a more conventionally configured development of its Su-47 demonstrator (left) (Source: Piotr Butowski) 17/05/2002 Jane`s

http://img132.exs.cx/img132/2372/t5042xk.jpg

another interpretation

http://img132.exs.cx/img132/5720/t5031pb.gif

http://img132.exs.cx/img132/3637/t5061xx.jpg

http://img132.exs.cx/img132/373/t5078ip.jpg

scale model

http://img132.exs.cx/img132/9007/cagi49jk.jpg

[WACHENR0DER]

these were posted before, but nevertheless interesting.

is the scale model really of the T-50? It looks an awfully like the prototype YF-22 and doesn't look too much like the line drawing on top.

[Vympel]

Air Force: Fifth Generation Airplane Will Be a Strike Fighter

Flight tests of the Russian fifth generation combat airplane will take place in 2007, Russian Federation air force commander-in-chief General of the Army Vladimir Mikhaylov reported today in Moscow. The CinC emphasized that the air force will continue work with this future tactical aviation complex, and "the times of its series production and entry into service will depend only on financing."

"We have a completely clear-cut program of progressive air force development, including of aviation equipment. Now the realization of all the programs we have will depend only on the financing. "The first generation airplane will provide fighter and strike functions," Mikhaylov said. According to him, an electronic version of the airplane already created has been successful.

"A very large amount of developmental work on the airplane's aerodynamics has been accomplished, and all of its weapons will be inside the fuselage," the CinC said. According to him, the defense ministry "has allocated definite funds for the fifth generation airplane, but fewer than we would like,"

Source: 13.01.05, Strana.RU

There we have it, gentlemen- the PAK FA will have internal weapons bays.

[ink]

and all of its weapons will be inside the fuselage

Presumably it will still have the option of mounting out-sized air to ground weapons on external hardpoints if and when this is required.

[JAZZ]

Interesting how many artists impressions seem to look more like F-22s. The drawings below have all been publish one-time or another in JDW, Aviation Week and flight Int. The final picture below them is fan-art of what the chinese j-13 may look like, but I think it also illustrates very closely the drawings published in the jounals...apart from the outward cantered tail fins.

[bring_it_on]

the last one looks like a mix of the rockwell ATF candidate and the f/a-22..with a typical sukhoi yupe nose thrown in...i have one question..the PAK FA is touted to be a market competitor of the JSF with a multi role (air defence ) capability..(AM I RIGHT) however its mission is more like the f/a-22/..how do economies of the entire project come in.

[SOC]

PAK-FA is more like the F/A-22 in terms of capability and size. They'd considered a JSF equivalent, but ended up back to an F/A-22 equivalent.

[deadman]

When will we see the thing? It takes around 20 years to develop a brand new plane. The Russians seem to be in the project definition stage and without a foreign partner for sharing the costs.

Is there any word on wind-tunnel testing?

[JAZZ]

Hi -Bring it on'

Im struggling to see the simalarities between the Rockwell ATF and picture posted ...Its possible to see all sorts of similarities between planes. (unless I have the wrong Rockwell ATF if so please post) One thing I do think thatis similar is the rear vectoring nozzels - diffently an F-22 copy.

http://

[ogami musashi]

Pak-fa speed requirements were decreased.
I have no clue of the new mach speed value but i'm afraid the pak-fa will be more like JSF than F/A-22 when i see those kind of measure(and including it will be a strike fighter).

[xanadu]

One thing I do think thatis similar is the rear vectoring nozzels - diffently an F-22 copy.

---------------------------------------------------------------


One thing that the Russians dont need to copy is vectoring nozzles. They are ahead of the US on that one.




IS JOINT DEVELOPMENT WITH THE INDIANS REALLY OFF WHAT BROUGHT THAT ON?